[Mike Walker]

"Forward": a term used to describe a woman who enjoys pleasing you even in public places. But that's something completely different!

"Forward" in audio terms means IN YOUR FACE, aggressive, having over-emphasized midrange and highs (the exact opposite of "recessed"). Anyone who says that "recessed" and "forward" are the same is either a-under a state of chemical enhancement or b-Ronald Reagan, who of course can be forgiven

 

[gloco]

Mike's definition of foward is identical to what i thought it was. So i agree with his definition.

George

 

[chych]

Hmm, here's mine, including some of my speakers...

Altec Lansing ADA885 - unpleasantly forward, too much midbass, no bass, NO clarity whatsoever

Grado SR80 (owned) - forward, as we all know

Etymotic ER-4S - contrary to Vertigo, I think these are fairly forward... actually more like... "inside of you" than forward

Sony EX-70 - probably the bass that forwards it a bit...

CSW MovieWorks 408 - as my HT... kind of laid back, but very good sound considering the cheap price for the set (speakers are $30ish each

)

Sony CD3000 - Mids seem recessed giving it a bit more laid back sound

Senn MX500 - probably because to me it sounds compressed and recessed... I could never get these type of earbuds to fit properly in my ears though

 

[BenG]

WOW, I just realized that evaluating speakers and phones can be subjective!

 

[RGA]

Without getting into insanely priced headphones, let's stick to the sub 1k models and use the HD 600 as the reference all the others are in relation to. You could also use the Stax here. These two cans are consistantly electrostatic sounding...heck the Stax is an electrostat...as such and both being well made they have a consistant transparency in the midband...nothing is recessed or emphasized. Which is not to say they don't have the frequency extremes...but it does mean they are not going to alter the 100Hz signal and trump it down to 40Hz...like my Sonys. OK it's not that extreme but you get the idea.

The term "laid back" can be used for the 580 or 600 if in relation to such headphones that are not transparent, but it is not really correct. The 580 or 600 should be said to not be forward. This doesn't mean their laid back it just means they are not emphasing the frequency extremes.

I'm also not saying that cans that emphasise the extremes are bad...it simply what kind of music you listen to and what kind of sound you are looking for. For Classical, vocals and Jazz under 1k then I want the 580 or 600 and to a lesser degree the RS1. The RS2 with the MG Head impressed me enought to add it.

Dance music and Rap then Sony and lower Grados fit the bill nicely.

 

[Mike Walker]

When we speak of "forwardness", we're not actually talking about frequency "extremes", unless one considers 2-5khz to be "extreme". A 'phone with a frequency lift from 2-5khz certainly would sound "forward", but there's nothing extreme about it! A lift at the "frequency extremes", particularly on the high end, is far more subtle, and in fact inaudible with many types of recordings (which makes sense, because the "extremes" by their nature are at the edge of audibility). A lift of a couple of db in the half-octave between 15khz and 20khz, for instance, MIGHT result in a somewhat heightened sense of "air", or "subtle detail". But as likely as not, with many if not most of your recordings, it would have little audible impact at all, since the vast majority of adults hear little or nothing above 15khz.

8-10khz, on the other hand, certainly does sound "extremely high" to most people, and a lift in this region is audible to most everybody on most any good recording. A lift in this range would, however, probably be described by most as causing an increased sense of "crispness" or "detail" rather than "forwardness". FORWARDNESS is almost exclusively an upper midrange/ lower treble phenomenon!

 

[domer2004]

HEY, I liked Ronald Reagan DAMNIT! Anyhow, I own the MS-1's and they give me a headache sometimes which I gather is from it being too "forward"?!? Oh yeah, I also like "blackness" between instruments. Is that the right word? Which cans do that well?

Brett

 

[Dusty Chalk]

Quote:

Originally posted by domer2004 Oh yeah, I also like "blackness" between instruments. Is that the right word? Which cans do that well?

Correct me if I'm wrong (anyone), but isn't that more of a characteristic of the amp? I don't think headphones hiss by themselves.

Sorry, just being a smart alec, don't really know the answer. I presume what you are looking for is a pair of headphones/amp combination that doesn't exaggerate the "air" region, possibly even de-emphasize it, so that would be...15-20kHz, according to Mike's recent post. But I would say -- make sure that the combo doesn't have any humps above 10kHz, just to make sure. Is that right?

 

[MacDEF]

Quote:

I wasn't going to comment on this thread, but then I saw someone had rated "The Plug", which has one of the most enormous upper midrange/treble peaks I've ever heard as "laid back"?!!! Unbelievable! And the "expert advice" just keeps on coming!

Mike, I think the Plug have some pretty bad manufacturing variance. The Plugs that I tried (two pair) had virtually no upper mid, no treble peak, and were basically muddy mid and lots of awful bass. So maybe the person who made that comment heard the same Plugs I did

 

[Xevion]

My goodness, my opinion made a slight difference in the thread

. I think I am starting to learn, heeheehee.

If someone here still dosen't understand forward, I will mail you my MX-4s for free, they sound terrible but demonstrate a forward sound perfectly

. And to think I paid like $30 or $40 for them (They sound worse then the average $5 earbud).

 

[RGA]

Let's keep it simple.

You have a recording with someone singing. In the background you have a multitude of instruments. Forward will Bring the singer out and the music in the background will be just that...Background. If the recording had the everything neutral then a forward sounding can will bring out the upper midrange...or likely a female vocalist to the foreground. A more neutral speaker or can will not. This is very simplistic but you get the idea.

A forward can or speaker that is top flight should still keep cohesion of the instruments. A bad speaker or can will bring the singer forward and make a mess of everything else.

I have often enjoyed forward sounding equipment...my speakers are a little forward...the trouble is that most stuff becomes irritating in long listening...neutral is a safer bet.

 

[SEK]

I agree with Mike Walker's definitions of "forwardness."

I also have built-in audio "forwardness" detectors: my tinnitus that has developed over the years (from too much loud music and operating power tools with inadequate sound protection) really gets excited by those upper mids. Most of the rest of the audio spectrum is much less of a factor, especially the frequency extremes.

Incidentally, I don't have a problem with my Sony MDRV6 or with my Vandersteen 1C speakers. I think the Vandersteens are considered to be "laid back" because they lack peakiness in their frequency response. They aren't deficient in any part of the audible frequency spectrum, except in the very lowest octave - for which I have an ACI Titan II subwoofer :^) - nor do they lack detail.

My audio forwardness detectors tell me that many Klipsch and some B & W speakers have a forward quality. My reading tells me that some Grado headphones might make my ears unhappy but that the better Sennheisers might not...

I can also readily detect the other kind of forwardness that Mike Walker briefly discussed. I appreciate it from my wife, whose balance of discretion and abandon mirrors my own.

I think his reference to Reagan had to do with his current medical affliction, something with which many of us may have to contend with eventually. This is not a place to applaud, forgive, or revile his policies.

 

[Mike Walker]

"Blackness between notes" is another one of those phrases invented by high end idiots who have no idea what the fu@k they're talking about!

Anything other than "blackness" (which I assume means SILENCE) between notes would be because of either noise, or ambience in the site where the recording is made. The first is a bad thing, the second a good one and BELONGS there!

At any rate if we can agree that "noise" is primarily what the "high end" press is talking about when they speak of a "lack of brightness", then we can completely eliminate headphones (or speakers) as being responsible for a "lack of blackness", because both are purely passive! I've actually read reviews in Stereophile (and other magazines with ZERO understanding of science!) in which they speak of the "noise level" of headphones! Headphones have no damn noise level! Being passive, they reproduce no noise of their own! They only pass along noise produced "upstream" (amp/preamp/source component/recording). Then why do some headphones sound "noisier" than others? Simple, Einstein...some are much more sensitive than others! More sensitive headphones will make everything sound louder (at a given setting of the volume control) including noise! Also some headphones emphasize the midrange and treble to some degree (aka Grado and Sony MDR-7506/V6). Since our ears and brains are more sensitive to sounds (noise and otherwise) in the midrange, noise which is already present will be more obvious through such devices. But the headphones themselves are not producing ANY noise!

 

[Neruda]

Man, it's nice to have mike walker back!

 

[Dusty Chalk]

Quote:

Originally posted by Mike Walker Then why do some headphones sound "noisier" than others? ...some are much more sensitive than others! More sensitive headphones will make everything sound louder (at a given setting of the volume control) including noise! Also some headphones emphasize the midrange and treble to some degree (aka Grado and Sony MDR-7506/V6). Since our ears and brains are more sensitive to sounds (noise and otherwise) in the midrange, noise which is already present will be more obvious through such devices.

Well yes, all of that's true (especially the part about not generating noise -- LOL!), but there's also compression. Some headphone/amp combinations will have less headroom, and when set up badly or run past their tolerances/optimal performing range, will compress, whereas the same headphone with a different amp (e.g., one more sensitive) won't (or at least, not as much). And since compression like that is frequency dependent, what you are looking for is -- well, what you should ultimately be looking for is one that does not do it at all, that would be optimal. But that aside -- what you can look for is one that does that minimally, especially in the frequency range 10kHz and above. Yes? No?