R2R RIP or Resurrection?

[old tech]

I did not know this. Then again, I wasn't into Naim products and never used them because they are too expensive for me.

I purchased a Naim NDX streamer 15 or so years ago. It was the quite expensive but I got it fairly cheap as a demo from a hi fi store that closed down. It was a nice solid unit and fairly advanced in features back then. I thought it was a superior product compared to other streamers. Fast forward a few years, a friend of mine purchased a fairly basic Bluesound $600 Node streamer and we decided to compare it with the Naim through a double blind test with a few other mates as well. We definitely could tell them apart (probably reflecting less than perfect controls) but the thing is we could not tell which was which or have an opinion which sounded better. Yet there are many on-line reviews of the that Naim NDX which use all that flowery language to describe the sound and concluding if you can afford it, it is $10,000 well spent. Go figure that!

 

[Jimmyblues1959]

I purchased a Naim NDX streamer 15 or so years ago. It was the quite expensive but I got it fairly cheap as a demo from a hi fi store that closed down. It was a nice solid unit and fairly advanced in features back then. I thought it was a superior product compared to other streamers. Fast forward a few years, a friend of mine purchased a fairly basic Bluesound $600 Node streamer and we decided to compare it with the Naim through a double blind test with a few other mates as well. We definitely could tell them apart (probably reflecting less than perfect controls) but the thing is we could not tell which was which or have an opinion which sounded better. Yet there are many on-line reviews of the that Naim NDX which use all that flowery language to describe the sound and concluding if you can afford it, it is $10,000 well spent. Go figure that!

Audio equipment is a business. Granted that from time to time there are significant improvements in the field. However, they don't occur that frequently, yet audio gear must be sold each year so that those who earn a living from this business can fiancially provide for their families and themselves. Thus the need for advertising campaigns to promote audio products, annually and through venues such as consumer electronic's shows, online reviews etc.

Audio companies choose their segments of the audio buying market based on the demographic they are looking to appeal to. For example, Naim Audio is not going to target a consumer who is looking to spend what the company would consider to be a relatively small expenditure on an audio system, when their target demographic would be someone who is looking to spend tens of thousands of dollars on an audio system.

The real issue is in regard to what a consumer perceives to be value for their audio dollar. And that will vary from one person to the next, based on what their needs are. High end audio components are sold as much for their aesthetics as they are for their performance. They are usually purchased by affluent consumers who want their audio systems to blend in with the expensive decor in their homes.

For the rest of us, we're looking for good sounding audio equipment that looks nice, without having to take out a second mortgage on our homes.

As for the question of searching for the Holy Grail in an audio system, the late Harry Pearson taught us that there is no such thing. His audio magazine, The Absolute Sound, illustrated time and time again that there's only the quest to achieve such an unattainable goal.

IMHO, the fact that you and your friend could hear a difference between your expensive Naim streamer and his $600 streamer, but not be able to agree on which sounded better, indicates how much even inexpensive digital equipment has improved over the past few decades.

 

[old tech]

IMHO, the fact that you and your friend could hear a difference between your expensive Naim streamer and his $600 streamer, but not be able to agree on which sounded better, indicates how much even inexpensive digital equipment has improved over the past few decades.

Agree with most of what you say except for this bit. Has digital equipment really improved over the past decade? The first CD player I owned was a Pioneer Elite bought back in 1985. It had 4x oversampling and it sounded great, easily bettering my high end vinyl and tape rig I had at the time. If it wasn't stolen a few years later I probably would have kept it. My replacement Yamaha "natural sound" CD player purchased in 1991didn't sound any better or worse and neither does my current NAD CD player purchased in 2013 (though I haven't used it in years). If anything the transport mechanism seems to be more robust on those earlier players but I have no doubt that the DACs have improved since my first CD player, I just think that the improvements are below human audibility.

 

[2leftears]

If anything the transport mechanism seems to be more robust on those earlier players but I have no doubt that the DACs have improved since my first CD player, I just think that the improvements are below human audibility.

I agree, in terms of transport quality and playback features vintage CD players often trump the modern ones. In that sense digital equipment has not always 'improved' over the decades, but it depends on your criteria.

 

[Jimmyblues1959]

Agree with most of what you say except for this bit. Has digital equipment really improved over the past decade? The first CD player I owned was a Pioneer Elite bought back in 1985. It had 4x oversampling and it sounded great, easily bettering my high end vinyl and tape rig I had at the time. If it wasn't stolen a few years later I probably would have kept it. My replacement Yamaha "natural sound" CD player purchased in 1991didn't sound any better or worse and neither does my current NAD CD player purchased in 2013 (though I haven't used it in years). If anything the transport mechanism seems to be more robust on those earlier players but I have no doubt that the DACs have improved since my first CD player, I just think that the improvements are below human audibility.

I should have prefaced what I said. The mass market CD players of the 1980's were fairly awful sounding as were the compact discs of the time. There were a few outliers during the 1980's such as the Meridian MCD PRO (which I owned) an ugraded version of a Magnavox CD player, and the *Pioneer Elite series, that were actually pleasant to listen to, provided that you could find a well recorded CD at the time.

*As I recall, the Pioneer Elite was a fairly expensive CD player in its day.

I have my late Dad's 1993 Naim CDi CD player which uses 16 bit 4 times over sampling technology, and still consider it to be one of the best sounding CD players I have ever heard. I actually preferred it to a 20 bit Meridian 508 CD player which came out a few years later.

Of course, the CDi was hardly a bargain at $4000 back in the day (over $9000 adjusted for inflation in the modern day). What I find of interest is that inexpensive digital components like an Amazon Fire Tablet can actually sound very good when used to stream music through a good quality audio system. I run a Fire HD10 plus tablet
through a Schiit Modius dac as part of my headphone system and it sounds quite good. I'm sure that Naim's streamers sound better but they are thousands of dollars compared with the $100 I spent for the HD10.

 

[Diet Kokaine]

I should have prefaced what I said. The mass market CD players of the 1980's were fairly awful sounding as were the compact discs of the time. There were a few outliers during the 1980's such as the Meridian MCD PRO (which I owned) an ugraded version of a Magnavox CD player, and the *Pioneer Elite series, that were actually pleasant to listen to, provided that you could find a well recorded CD at the time.

*As I recall, the Pioneer Elite was a fairly expensive CD player in its day.

I have my late Dad's 1993 Naim CDi CD player which uses 16 bit 4 times over sampling technology, and still consider it to be one of the best sounding CD players I have ever heard. I actually preferred it to a 20 bit Meridian 508 CD player which came out a few years later.

Of course, the CDi was hardly a bargain at $4000 back in the day (over $9000 adjusted for inflation in the modern day). What I find of interest is that inexpensive digital components like an Amazon Fire Tablet can actually sound very good when used to stream music through a good quality audio system. I run a Fire HD10 plus tablet
through a Schiit Modius dac as part of my headphone system and it sounds quite good. I'm sure that Naim's streamers sound better but they are thousands of dollars compared with the $100 I spent for the HD10.

Tablets don't have fans, spinning hard drives, or bulky switching power supplies, so they drastically reduce EMI/RFI noise, preserving the integrity of analog signals. Battery power helps immensely.

PCs have components like fans, HDDs, unoptimzed operating systems, and switching power supplies which introduce audible hum and interference, especially in sensitive setups.

As I see it, a music server is just an optimized PC with a linear power supply. You can either pay **outrageously** large amounts of money to buy one, or you can build a water cooled PC( cooling is powered separately) and pair it with a very low noise linear power supply. (DIY is the best option).
Bypassing all electrolytic capacitors in your audio chain is also an absolute must.

 

[Jimmyblues1959]

Tablets don't have fans, spinning hard drives, or bulky switching power supplies, so they drastically reduce EMI/RFI noise, preserving the integrity of analog signals. Battery power helps immensely.

PCs have components like fans, HDDs, unoptimzed operating systems, and switching power supplies which introduce audible hum and interference, especially in sensitive setups.

As I see it, a music server is just an optimized PC with a linear power supply. You can either pay **outrageously** large amounts of money to buy one, or you can build a water cooled PC( powered separately) and pair it with a very low noise linear power supply. (DIY is the best option).
Bypassing all electrolytic capacitors in your audio chain is also an absolute must.

I could not have said it better myself. Not as good in fact. The irony is that if you tell someone who owns a very expensive music streamer that
an Amazon Fire functions well as a music streamer, they will probably find it difficult to believe. Around 2009, I was due for a new computer, so I purchased
an entry level DELL notebook for around $300. If memory serves me correctly, I believe that it had an Inspiron processor. The computer was slow and really not up to watching movies on (lots of chopiness) but it did function well for basic audio streaming. I had it hooked up to my two channel speaker system and remember thinking "this little $300 computer is actually functioning as a digital front end to my audio system, and it doesn't sound bad. In fact, it sounds pretty good!" I was thinking about this within the context of some of the more expensive components that I have used as audio sources over the years including CD players, turntables, FM tuners and tape decks.

The Amazon tablet is far better than my old DELL notebook; significantly faster, with the ability to easily stream audio and video. And a fraction of the price.

Most of all, with well recorded music, I can listen for hours at a time without suffering from listenen's fatigue.

 

[Diet Kokaine]

@Jimmyblues1959
If you’re looking for a meaningful upgrade to your tablet experience—especially for movies and 24-bit audio—it’s going to be impossible to find a device under $3,000 (or even higher) that actually delivers (for both audio and graphics.). I’m right there with you: I love immersive, theater-quality playback as much as I love listening to music.

My solution ended up being an audiophile-grade gaming PC—optimized for high end graphics and audio. I had to build my own DIY linear power supply (1,000W, ultra-low noise .8Uvrms) running on LT3045 voltage regulators. All electrolytic capacitors are also bypassed with Duelund tinned copper foils.
The result is jaw-dropping; it’s hard to describe how crisp and dynamic everything sounds until you’ve heard it yourself. Resolution is stunning.

Of course, I totally get that most folks aren’t building rigs like this. It’s a niche project.
For your situation, a simple tablet is still a fantastic, hassle-free option. Best bang for the buck option (by far).

100 dollar DACs? away
100 dollar Tablets? An emphatic


True endgame systems? In my opinion: They’re built, not bought.

 

[FrancoeurRichard]

Appreciate the link

 

[Diet Kokaine]

..

 

[theveterans]

@Jimmyblues1959
If you’re looking for a meaningful upgrade to your tablet experience—especially for movies and 24-bit audio—it’s going to be impossible to find a device under $3,000 (or even higher) that actually delivers (for both audio and graphics.). I’m right there with you: I love immersive, theater-quality playback as much as I love listening to music.

My solution ended up being an audiophile-grade gaming PC—optimized for high end graphics and audio. I had to build my own DIY linear power supply (1,000W, ultra-low noise .8Uvrms) running on LT3045 voltage regulators. All electrolytic capacitors are also bypassed with Duelund tinned copper foils.
The result is jaw-dropping; it’s hard to describe how crisp and dynamic everything sounds until you’ve heard it yourself. Resolution is stunning.

Of course, I totally get that most folks aren’t building rigs like this. It’s a niche project.
For your situation, a simple tablet is still a fantastic, hassle-free option. Best bang for the buck option (by far).

100 dollar DACs? away
100 dollar Tablets? An emphatic


True endgame systems? In my opinion: They’re built, not bought.

I don't think a lot of people on this thread think that the total sound quality coming out of a DAC is influenced by as much as 50% of the source you feed into it (IMHO), citing that the 1 KHz analog output or even multitone output is identical no matter the source

 

[XTF1]

I had to build my own DIY linear power supply (1,000W, ultra-low noise .8Uvrms) running on LT3045 voltage regulators.

What made you select the LT3045 and not a discrete-type voltage regulator?
Can’t be the tech specs if you are so invested in the R2R stuff…

 

[old tech]

I should have prefaced what I said. The mass market CD players of the 1980's were fairly awful sounding as were the compact discs of the time. There were a few outliers during the 1980's such as the Meridian MCD PRO (which I owned) an ugraded version of a Magnavox CD player, and the *Pioneer Elite series, that were actually pleasant to listen to, provided that you could find a well recorded CD at the time.

*As I recall, the Pioneer Elite was a fairly expensive CD player in its day.

I have my late Dad's 1993 Naim CDi CD player which uses 16 bit 4 times over sampling technology, and still consider it to be one of the best sounding CD players I have ever heard. I actually preferred it to a 20 bit Meridian 508 CD player which came out a few years later.

Of course, the CDi was hardly a bargain at $4000 back in the day (over $9000 adjusted for inflation in the modern day). What I find of interest is that inexpensive digital components like an Amazon Fire Tablet can actually sound very good when used to stream music through a good quality audio system. I run a Fire HD10 plus tablet
through a Schiit Modius dac as part of my headphone system and it sounds quite good. I'm sure that Naim's streamers sound better but they are thousands of dollars compared with the $100 I spent for the HD10.

Again, agree with some of what you say but disagree that 80s CD players and 80s CDs were awful. Awful compared to what? The 80s CD players certainly had higher fidelity than turntables and cassette decks at that time and most people heard it that way. I was there back in the 80s, going to HiFi shows and reading mags back in the day, CD players were hailed as a major step forward in home audio, no mainstream audiophile back then heard otherwise, apart from some cranks on the fringe such as Fremer. CD players sounding crap in the 80s is another of those audiophile myths.

As for 80s CDs, that is nonsense too, some of the best sounding digital audio are those made in the 80s. Most were direct transfers from the masters and also predated the loudness wars. Of course there was a lot of crap sounding CDs which in the rush to get to market, often the choice of production master was poor or the transfer process was rushed. As one of countless examples, if I wanted to listed to Dark Side of the Moon, I'll take the 1983 Sony mastered black triangle CD over any of the later versions, including the SACD and the so called hi res versions. Those 80s CDs that are by consensus are subjectively the best sounding digital versions are commanding top dollar in the used market.

 

[danadam]

CD players sounding crap in the 80s is another of those audiophile myths.

Archimago has recorded output of Technics SL-P110 [1986] (and Sony CDP-690 [1990])
https://archimago.blogspot.com/2021/12/retro-technics-sl-p110-1986-sony-cdp.html
They sound fine to me.

 

[Diet Kokaine]

What made you select the LT3045 and not a discrete-type voltage regulator?
Can’t be the tech specs if you are so invested in the R2R stuff…

Experience.

After extensive listening tests, the **LT3045 regulators** paired with my audio setup deliver the best performance to my ears—by a significant margin. The decision to favor them was effortless once I heard the results.

This preference isn’t ideological. While I’ve tried R2R DACs and other chip-based alternatives, the R2R DACs consistently outperform better measuring chip DACs in every metric I value: clarity, depth, and overall fidelity. My choice is rooted purely in methodical listening, not preconceived notions.

I’m no ideologue. I test, I listen, and I let my ears decide—**what sounds better, wins**.