R2R/multibit vs Delta-Sigma - Is There A Measurable Scientific Difference That's Audible
Sep 13, 2018 at 4:36 PM Post #916 of 1,344
As long as you don't alter any of the actual data - which would make in incorrect....
And you do nothing that makes the DAC unable to properly decode the incoming signal without errors....
There shouldn't be much of anything you can do that will be especially bad for either type of DAC.... (they are both designed to accept the same exact PCM digital audio signal)

D-S and R2R DACs have slightly different weaknesses and sensitivities, so, if you were to make the signal worse, there would definitely be certain flaws that would affect one type more than the other.
Luckily, most well designed DACs are going to be mostly immune to this sort of things anyway.
However, no sane person would add a device to their signal chain that made the signal quality worse, so this shouldn't be a problem.

Nothing. It sounds superb. I just would like to know, if there is something that should NOT be done specifically to R2R dacs in contrast with DS dacs in terms of signal treatment with sound purifiers.
 
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Sep 13, 2018 at 5:28 PM Post #917 of 1,344
Nothing. It sounds superb. I just would like to know, if there is something that should NOT be done specifically to R2R dacs in contrast with DS dacs in terms of signal treatment with sound purifiers.

There's an old saying... "If it ain't broke, don't fix it!"
 
Sep 22, 2018 at 7:57 AM Post #919 of 1,344
Pros and cons of R-2R DAC :
Advantages:
1.R-2R will not convert the clock signal into the output signal.
2. R-2R is not sensitive to jitter while Delta-Sigma DA is much more sensitive to jitter.
3. The output signal is much more precise compared to Delta-Sigma DA .
Weaknesses:
1.THD today is extremely good with Sigma Delta chips; R2R ladders are good too but not as good.
2. Glitches and accuracy of the ladder resistors are very difficult to avoid and require complex technology to resolve it.

Since a audibley transparent delta - sigma dac can be cheaply and easily manufactured and R2R requires more complex methods to over come Glitches and accuracy of the ladder resistors, could the Glitches and accuracy of the ladder resistors in a R2R thats not very well designed cause audible differences.
 
Sep 22, 2018 at 12:07 PM Post #920 of 1,344
1. R-2R will not convert the clock signal into the output signal.
2. R-2R is not sensitive to jitter while Delta-Sigma DA is much more sensitive to jitter.
3. The output signal is much more precise compared to Delta-Sigma DA .
Why would 1 and 2 be any more or less true on an R2R vs. a delta-sigma DAC? Either should be capable of maintaining their own internal reference clock (which would have to be phase locked to the input signal) or just using the input as a reference, no? In fact, if using USB input, I don't believe there's any clock on the input signal that's useful for clocking the DAC, so the USB section of the DAC will have to generate its own clock regardless.

In what way is the output signal of an R2R DAC more "precise" than a delta-sigma DAC?

(I'm not trying to poke holes. I'd just like to understand on a technical level why you list these as advantages of R2R.)
 
Sep 22, 2018 at 12:44 PM Post #921 of 1,344
I copied and pasted that from here http://www.audio-gd.com/R2R/R2R11/R2R11EN.htm . it was only really this point I was interested in "2. Glitches and accuracy of the ladder resistors are very difficult to avoid and require complex technology to resolve it."

My guess would be the claim that R2R is more precise is because it doesn't use oversampling or digital filters like delta sigma.
 
Sep 22, 2018 at 1:05 PM Post #922 of 1,344
I don't think that statement means much of anything without defining what Audio-GD means by "precise". For instance, THD seems a good measure of precision, in which case that statement would directly contradict what's said below. Oversampling and digital filters definitely make the output less "pure", if that's the aim, but that has nothing to do with precision or accuracy (both of which do actually have specific meanings in a technical context). https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Accuracy_and_precision

From my limited knowledge, the two weaknesses listed (especially the second) are why R2R DACs fell out of favor. But again, the only way to really judge a design's technical merits is to see how it actually measures against the competition. (THD, IMD, and SNR being the a good set of measurements, though in practice it's also important that a DAC's output characteristics behave well with a connected amp's inputs.) For listening, of course, one is absolutely free to use whatever sounds best to them. :)
 
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Sep 22, 2018 at 2:52 PM Post #923 of 1,344
The better designed R2R dacs I've seen measured, don't do anything better than delta sigma and theres no differences that would be audible to our ears. But there more expensive and complex and to manufacture requiring laser trimmed resistors, so its highly likely there are some poorly performing one's around that do sound audibly different.
 
Sep 24, 2018 at 9:54 AM Post #924 of 1,344
Pros and cons of R-2R DAC :
Advantages:
1.R-2R will not convert the clock signal into the output signal.
2. R-2R is not sensitive to jitter while Delta-Sigma DA is much more sensitive to jitter.
3. The output signal is much more precise compared to Delta-Sigma DA .
Weaknesses:
1.THD today is extremely good with Sigma Delta chips; R2R ladders are good too but not as good.
2. Glitches and accuracy of the ladder resistors are very difficult to avoid and require complex technology to resolve it.

Since a audibly transparent delta - sigma dac can be cheaply and easily manufactured and R2R requires more complex methods to over come Glitches and accuracy of the ladder resistors, could the Glitches and accuracy of the ladder resistors in a R2R thats not very well designed cause audible differences.

A lot of the clams made for R2R DACs are extremely dependent on the context in which they're made - and some of them are a bit specious.

I have no idea what "advantage #1" is supposed to mean. The process of converting digital audio into analog requires data and a clock. With PCM data, the data and the clock are parts of the same signal (the timing of the pulses is the clock). With USB, the data is sent in packets, which don't explicitly contain the clock that goes with them, and the clock must be re-created inside the DAC, which can be done a few different ways. Either way, the DAC takes care of the details, creating or regenerating the clock as needed, and then using it in the conversion process. The analog output signal is analog; it does not have or use a clock. Both types of DACs "internally" generate an output that is a series of voltage "steps". The steps are inherent in the process; they must be filtered out; and, when they are filtered out, the remaining analog output is precisely what it should be. R2R DACs DO NOT somehow magically avoid this part of the process. Some R2R DAC designs do avoid using an explicit filter stage to remove the steps. They do so by incorporating one or more components that is inherently frequency limited, like a transformer, which simply fails to pass the extraneous high-frequency energy. However, they are not "elegantly avoiding an inaccuracy". What they are doing is to remove an accurate and precisely calculated filter, and instead allowing design imitations to do the same job, only sloppily and imprecisely.

Advantage #2 is actually true in a certain context. By all reports, many R2R DAC chips are less sensitive to jitter than most Delta-Sigma DAC chips. That means that, for a given amount of jitter in the signal that actually reaches the chip itself, the R2R chip will produce fewer artifacts (less distortion). This means that, if all else in the design was exactly equal, the R2R chip might perform better. However, in real life, it simply means that, when designing a Delta-Sigma DAC, the designer has to be a little bit more careful about minimizing jitter. This is not especially difficult to achieve. (And note that we're NOT saying that an R2R DAC will perform better with input signals with a lot of jitter. First off, an input signal should not have a lot of jitter to begin with. Second, all DACs have internal mechanisms that eliminate or drastically reduce jitter before the signal reaches the DAC chip. Third, virtually all R2R chips have more serious issues that overshadow this one.)

Advantage #3 is simply an unsubstantiated claim. The output signal produced by most Delta-Sigma DACs is far more precise than the one produced by most R2R DACs... and this is especially true with higher bit depths. There are many R2R DACs that can reproduce a 16 bit signal relatively accurately, but almost none that are accurate to 24 bits. The term "precise" is ambiguous; it can refer to any measurement, or combination of measurements, you choose to use. By almost all commonly used measurements, the output of most Delta-Sigma DACs is FAR more accurate than that of most R2R DACs. Fans of R2R DACs will point to the one or two performance metrics in which R2R DACs do well and claim "they're the ones that you hear the most", but that is... err... a minority opinion. Also, incidentally, most of the so-called "time accuracy issues" usually attributed to Delta-Sigma DACs are really associated with oversampling. Therefore, they are equally true for all oversampling DACs - whether they are D-S or R2R. (Oversampling has huge benefits and minimal drawbacks - so is really necessary for a DAC to perform well - especially with a 44.1k input sample rate signal. Non-oversampling DACs of either type perform quite poorly - by almost all performance metrics. Although, again, fans of NOS DACs will insist that the few things they get more or less right are "the important ones".)

Both weaknesses are spot on.... I would also add that the complex technology needed to overcome glitch issues is often rather fussy (which is why some R2R DACs require an absurdly lengthy warm-up before they perform properly). The complexity also detracts from the price/performance ratio. Low cost R2R DACs often perform really badly; and R2R DACs that perform even reasonably well tend to cost far more than D-S DACs that perform at an equivalent or higher level.

I also feel obligated to comment on one fact that seems to crop up in the marketing literature for many expensive R2R DACs.
They say "the makers of Delta-Sigma DACs use them because it enables them to make a very cheap product that exhibits really good performance".
(But they try really hard to infer that getting excellent performance for a low price is somehow a bad thing.) :gs1000smile:
 
Feb 7, 2019 at 12:49 PM Post #925 of 1,344
If there's anything the endless comparing between the Yggdrasil and Benchmark 3 dacs has taught me is that measurements serve their purposes, but not always the answer you need to what you might want for casual listening.

If a common standard for a beautiful woman is that they are blonde and thin(lets make this D/S as they usually measure great), and my preference is curvy/thick hispanic/black/whatever women(R2R). I'm not going to force myself to or pretend to like the thin blonde. Measures great? Awesome, but if my ears say get this thing away from me then I'm not going to keep using it. I'll just let my ears sit in the corner with their box of tissues as they get their R2R fetish on.What DAC I use will largely depend on the cans anyway, Utopias sounded not so great on Yggy, but fantastic on the Benchmark, while the HD800S sounded fantastic on Yggy, but blah on the Benchmark. There's too many variables for measurements to be the end all be all answer in a decision. One of the DACs will get sold eventually, whichever pairs better with the ZMF Verite I'll keep.
 
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Feb 7, 2019 at 12:58 PM Post #926 of 1,344
Audibly different is the only difference that matters to my all too human ears.
 
Feb 8, 2019 at 3:22 AM Post #928 of 1,344
If there's anything the endless comparing between the Yggdrasil and Benchmark 3 dacs has taught me is that measurements serve their purposes, but not always the answer you need to what you might want for casual listening.

If a common standard for a beautiful woman is that they are blonde and thin(lets make this D/S as they usually measure great), and my preference is curvy/thick hispanic/black/whatever women(R2R). I'm not going to force myself to or pretend to like the thin blonde. Measures great? Awesome, but if my ears say get this thing away from me then I'm not going to keep using it. I'll just let my ears sit in the corner with their box of tissues as they get their R2R fetish on.What DAC I use will largely depend on the cans anyway, Utopias sounded not so great on Yggy, but fantastic on the Benchmark, while the HD800S sounded fantastic on Yggy, but blah on the Benchmark. There's too many variables for measurements to be the end all be all answer in a decision. One of the DACs will get sold eventually, whichever pairs better with the ZMF Verite I'll keep.
measurements provide extra information. if it's useful, cool, if not we'll rely on something else. what's nonsensical is deciding that measurements are useless or even misinformation simply because we don't understand them. or just as bad, because I as an individual, am a fan of some device but the measurements didn't say it was the best stuff since sliced bread. basically ignorance or ego getting in the way of reason. and sadly we see this all too often on the forum.
once we understand that a given measurement tells us about one specific variable measured under one specific set of conditions, and all that is properly specified for us, we're able to know if that measurement is relevant to our use or not. and if we want to care or not. as for euphony and personal taste, only a few measured variables may give hints about such subjective notions. nobody expects a list of ingredients and chemicals to tell us how much we'll like the taste of some processed food. but some ingredients might be a big no no for us, so that list may still serve a purpose and we're glad to have it. it's the same for music and measurements. I wouldn't purchase a DAC if it had anchovy in it(analogy gone too far^_^).
 
Feb 8, 2019 at 3:34 AM Post #929 of 1,344
measurements provide extra information. if it's useful, cool, if not we'll rely on something else. what's nonsensical is deciding that measurements are useless or even misinformation simply because we don't understand them. or just as bad, because I as an individual, am a fan of some device but the measurements didn't say it was the best stuff since sliced bread. basically ignorance or ego getting in the way of reason. and sadly we see this all too often on the forum.
once we understand that a given measurement tells us about one specific variable measured under one specific set of conditions, and all that is properly specified for us, we're able to know if that measurement is relevant to our use or not. and if we want to care or not. as for euphony and personal taste, only a few measured variables may give hints about such subjective notions. nobody expects a list of ingredients and chemicals to tell us how much we'll like the taste of some processed food. but some ingredients might be a big no no for us, so that list may still serve a purpose and we're glad to have it. it's the same for music and measurements. I wouldn't purchase a DAC if it had anchovy in it(analogy gone too far^_^).

Agree completely! Only wish auditioning gear, especially less popular gear was an easier process since not every brand offers trial periods. Most av stores might not even carry or heard of what you're looking for in my experience, limiting auditioning opportunities to events like Can Jam.
 
Feb 8, 2019 at 12:36 PM Post #930 of 1,344
Auditioning transducers is important. They're mechanical, there's considerable variance in sound from model to model, and produce make the sound you can actually hear. But I don't see any reason why someone couldn't decide on a player or amp based on specs alone. All you want is audible transparency and in the case of the amp, power. Well maybe it would be nice to see the remote control before you haul the box all the way home...
 

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