R2R/multibit vs Delta-Sigma - Is There A Measurable Scientific Difference That's Audible
Aug 23, 2019 at 3:50 PM Post #1,126 of 1,344
An interesting bit of trivia (or maybe not interesting!) is that "Here We Go Again" was the punch line to a dirty joke popular in the 40s. Whenever you see that phrase in the 40s and early 50s they are slyly referring to the joke. The full punch line is "Hold on to your hats boys, here we go again!"
 
Last edited:
Aug 23, 2019 at 10:07 PM Post #1,127 of 1,344
@castleofargh . I read the pdf and it is indeed a fine blueprint for blind tests . Were anyone able to conduct a test of suitable dacs along these lines it would have strong credibility and carry great weight as evidence . What I find most problematic in my investigation of this long running debate is the calculation or attribution of weight to the related experience or experiential evidence as I have put it . I understand you give very little weight to vague impressions . I think I will take some time to look for more evidence that might help quantify vague impressions before placing them on the balance in the debate .
 
Aug 23, 2019 at 10:19 PM Post #1,128 of 1,344
@KeithEmo Thank you for the feedback you have expanded my horizons in an interesting subject .
On quality , I find it interesting how perception of quality shifts over time particularly in audio and video . Sound quality from even a high end cassette player of 30 years ago would be unacceptable in a budget dap of today for example . Advances in television are possibly even more striking with even the best crt units having lower resolution than todays phones .
 
Aug 23, 2019 at 10:42 PM Post #1,129 of 1,344
You have a contradiction in terms there... How can inaudible be audible?

The thresholds of audibility are established by scientific testing to determine if the human ear can hear it. If it is inaudible, it's inaudible. Human ears have varying levels of degradation, but there is an upper limit to human hearing that no one can hear beyond.

The problem is that the average audiophile knows a great deal about specs in theory, but they know almost nothing about what those numbers on the page actually sound like. They assume because one amp has better specs than another, that there must be an audible difference. If the difference exists beyond human ability to hear, there is no difference. You're more likely to find that the difference is due to simple perceptual error or bias than it is actual sound. That's when you do a controlled test (line level matched, direct A/B switched, blind) to see if an audible difference exists. If you can hear a difference without controls, but not with controls the difference is because of the lack of controls, not the way the component actually sounds.

The studies that have shown perception of super audible sounds just show changes in brain waves. That doesn't mean that they are being heard. Sticking someone with a pin will result in a brain wave change. So will lying down rather than sitting up. There have been studies where music with super audible frequencies was compared to music without and listeners expressed absolutely no preference of one over the other. Inaudible frequencies were determined to add nothing to the perceived sound quality of music.

This argument usually is a last ditch effort for audiophiles to justify their biased perception. It's kind of like arguing about darker than pitch black or louder than deafening or hotter than scalding. Yes, all of that exists, but it doesn't matter because our ability to discern isn't infinite. The problem is normal human limits, not the quality of one amp over another.
My intent in posting the hypothesis was only to explore another path .
By itself the Cochlear implant demonstrates audible perception in people who have no functioning ear ie total degradation .
I specifically chose two studies which included speech recognition , no pins involved .
I am open to establishment of a counter hypothesis if you would care to construct one .
 
Aug 23, 2019 at 10:59 PM Post #1,130 of 1,344
My intent in posting the hypothesis was only to explore another path .
By itself the Cochlear implant demonstrates audible perception in people who have no functioning ear ie total degradation .
I specifically chose two studies which included speech recognition , no pins involved .
I am open to establishment of a counter hypothesis if you would care to construct one .

It seems to me the main problem with your premise is if there is any acoustic energy of a voice within your claimed 100khz range. The orders of magnitude for harmonics of the human voice is well below 100khz, so by the time you reach this frequency, you have nothing left for bone conduction from regular voice in an air medium. Furthermore, the only studies that confirm a situation with 100khz hearing is deep sea diving: in which conditions are very different and there is a better medium of bone conduction with water transference.
 
Aug 24, 2019 at 2:25 AM Post #1,132 of 1,344
I am open to establishment of a counter hypothesis if you would care to construct one .

Sure... sloppy controls on the listening test and bias. Notice that a disproportionate number of people who claim to hear differences are people who "don't believe in controlled tests".

I think I will take some time to look for more evidence that might help quantify vague impressions before placing them on the balance in the debate .

Vague impressions resist quantification. It's never described in terms of quantifiable aspects like distortion, noise, frequency response, etc... only in non-specific terms like veils, soundstage width and blackness. If you see these sorts of terms being used, you can be pretty sure that the person using them hasn't bothered to quantify.

Sound quality from even a high end cassette player of 30 years ago would be unacceptable in a budget dap of today for example

How do you tell if you've achieved "perfect sound"... Hint: think transparency.
 
Last edited:
Aug 24, 2019 at 5:00 AM Post #1,133 of 1,344
It seems to me the main problem with your premise is if there is any acoustic energy of a voice within your claimed 100khz range. The orders of magnitude for harmonics of the human voice is well below 100khz, so by the time you reach this frequency, you have nothing left for bone conduction from regular voice in an air medium. Furthermore, the only studies that confirm a situation with 100khz hearing is deep sea diving: in which conditions are very different and there is a better medium of bone conduction with water transference.
Really it's not my premise or claim it is just a quote from an article to back my hypothesis .
Here is a link to the article
https://www.jstor.org/stable/2876207
 
Aug 24, 2019 at 6:35 AM Post #1,134 of 1,344
[1] Measure the jitter of two DACs. They will be identical in every way. Put them side-by-side, they cannot be distinguished apart. Same volume level.
[1a] You point to the one that you are convinced sounds better by quite some margin. It turns out that it is the one that was earlier measured as having higher jitter. What is going on?
[1b] It is the nature of the jitter that has to be measured. Jitter is frequency related, jitter is in fact noise and it has a frequency response. So it matters WHAT frequency that the jitter shows up. At certain frequencies, jitter matters more than showing up at other frequencies.
[1c] Jitter close to the fundamental (low frequency) is very difficult to measure and it has been shown to be the worst form of jitter.
[2] But what happens when we multiply the Blue area by 100? This and it is scary: Look at how below 50 Hertz the rise in random noise means an increase in very low-frequency jitter.
[2a] It goes from a decent -130dB to worse than -90dB and if further magnification it would likely be worse than that.
[3] This LF jitter is what causes the kind of "digital sound" that many have complained about.

1. Good.
1a. What's going on is that firstly, if one has a higher measured jitter, then obviously they are NOT "identical in every way". What other way are they not identical? Secondly, even If we assume they are identical in every way except jitter, then the jitter artefacts have to be at least equal to, or above, the threshold of audibility otherwise "what is going on" MUST be some cognitive bias/perception error, there is NO other rational alternative!
1b. That depends on how you define "matters". "Matters" in terms of a measurement or "matters" in terms of an audible difference?
1c. That depends on the frequency of the fundamental and what you mean by "low frequency". If the fundamental is at say 3kHz then that would be potentially the "worst form of jitter [noise]" as that's where human hearing is most sensitive. If we're talking about frequencies below about 500Hz though, then that would potentially be the best form of jitter noise, as human hearing is progressively less sensitive to low frequencies. I say "potentially" because obviously it doesn't "matter", if it's below audibility.

2. There's obviously two huge problems with your assertion:
A. Firstly, that's a hypothetical question. What happens if we multiply a wasp's size by 100 times, is that scary? Sure, in our imagination but of course there's no need to be scared in reality because no such wasp exists. We might as well say "what happens when we multiply the blue area by" a few trillion, that would be particular scary as it would probably kill you!
B. Secondly, even if it were not a hypothetical question and there were DACs which multiplied the blue area by 100 times, it still wouldn't make any difference! If we take jitter noise (or any other noise) that is inaudible at 3kHz, increase it's amplitude by 100 times and change it's frequency to "below 50Hz", then it is still INAUDIBLE! Because, human hearing is about "100 times" less sensitive to frequencies below 50Hz. Science has known this for over 85 years (Fletcher-Munson) and it's been confirmed by countless hearing threshold tests ever since! In other words, even if there were DACs that produced 100 times more jitter noise below 50Hz (at -90dB), that would still be way below audibility!
2a. How is -130dB "decent"? It's not "decent", it "preposterous"! Given any reasonable listening volume, -130dB noise cannot even be reproduced by transducers and so the question of audibility is obviously mute!

3. No it's not, you just made that up! The "digital sound that many have complained about" is the lack of analogue distortion and in some cases, also a deliberate choice made during mixing and/or mastering. This has been thoroughly well established for many decades, even when digital audio was first released to the public!

As there are cheap DACs on the market ($100 and lower) which have jitter artefacts throughout the spectrum which peak no higher than -120dB, then "What is going on" appears completely obvious: The old audiophile marketing ploy of taking some inaudible "problem", lying about it's magnitude and/or audibility and then offering some expensive audiophile solution which (falsely) claims an audible improvement!

[1] So what interests me? Doing my job!
[2] BTW, I know about the Stereo Review magazine. That was 32 years ago and if you are doing the same as they are, then I am not surprised. We have thankfully come a long way since then.

1. Which is to sell an expensive audiophile solution which claims an audible improvement!!

2. Agreed, we've come an awful "long way since then", in terms of the audiophile marketing of snake oil, although I'm not in the least be "thankful" for that!

[1] A large body of experiential evidence along the lines of dac a sounds different to dac b . Counterpoint a large body of empirical evidence demonstrating difference outside of audible limits
[2] "When you have eliminated the impossible , whatever remains , however improbable , must be the truth" Sherlock Holmes , Arthur Conan Doyle

1. As castleofargh pointed out. "no" there is no reliable evidence, let alone a large body of reliable evidence. In fact, the reliable evidence indicates no difference. There also is no reliable evidence which demonstrates anything beyond audible limits, given the conditions of listening to commercial music recordings at a reasonable level with consumer equipment (consumer headphones/speakers).

2. Absolutely! But conversely, what if you haven't "eliminated the impossible", what if you've eliminated something that IS possible? Surely, "what remains" (as it's improbable) is unlikely to be the truth. What if you've eliminated something that isn't just possible but is likely? Surely, "what remains" is extremely unlikely to be the truth. And, what if you eliminated something that isn't just likely but is proven/demonstrated to occur almost continuously and is responsible for the very existence of music in the first place? Surely, "what remains" has no chance, and even less chance still if "what remains" isn't even applicable! You've effectively applied the quote backwards; your "what remains" should have been eliminated and what you've erroneously eliminated should be the "what remains" (and it's not even slightly improbable)!!

G
 
Last edited:
Aug 24, 2019 at 6:50 AM Post #1,135 of 1,344
@castleofargh . I read the pdf and it is indeed a fine blueprint for blind tests . Were anyone able to conduct a test of suitable dacs along these lines it would have strong credibility and carry great weight as evidence . What I find most problematic in my investigation of this long running debate is the calculation or attribution of weight to the related experience or experiential evidence as I have put it . I understand you give very little weight to vague impressions . I think I will take some time to look for more evidence that might help quantify vague impressions before placing them on the balance in the debate .
my point of view is that improper experiments do not gain statistical significance through sheer number. doing it wrong a thousand times, doesn't make it less wrong. a sighted experience isn't really a listening test. that's a pretty bad way to start. it involves listening, seeing, feeling, and the influence of already existing opinions in the listener's mind. all of those variables will have some unknown amount of impact on the final impression of "sound". unknown because that type of "test" lacks the needed conditions and controls we'd need to estimate how reliable anything may be. when someone says he heard something, that experience has no way of letting us confirm it(and why I refuse it as supporting evidence).
so in a sighted "listening test", we get something that's not focused enough on listening and isn't really a test because we can confirm nothing. not a great way to look for answers about audibility.

getting a lot of similar reactions from feedback can hardly mean increased confidence. I get how it could feel like it should, but we know that this would also happen simply by having the first people listening to those devices and sharing their impressions with everybody else, feeding them preconceptions. and again, it's something we could control by making sure that the listeners don't communicate with each other before the experiment is complete. or simply by making sure they don't know what they're listening to at a given time. but doing that would start to look suspiciously like a controlled test ^_^.
 
Aug 24, 2019 at 9:24 AM Post #1,136 of 1,344
Really it's not my premise or claim it is just a quote from an article to back my hypothesis .
Here is a link to the article
https://www.jstor.org/stable/2876207

Yet the very introduction to that study states that no appreciable sound is beyond 24khz with the natural voice, and they’ve modulated the signal (applying their own artificial environment). Their setup was also very different from your premise that people might perceive ultra high frequencies from regular audio systems.
 
Last edited:
Aug 24, 2019 at 2:19 PM Post #1,137 of 1,344
Really it's not my premise or claim it is just a quote from an article to back my hypothesis .
Here is a link to the article
https://www.jstor.org/stable/2876207

We're speaking here specifically about recorded music. Why would super audible frequencies be important if blind test after blind test of 16/44.1 vs 24/96 show no audible difference? I also read a study where they gave normal people two samples... 1) 24/96 and 2) CD quality with everything above 10kHz filtered out. People said that they could detect a small difference between the two samples, but they didn't think one sounded any better than the other. Most people can't hear much above 15kHz. Why would the top octave be so unimportant to sound fidelity, yet frequencies 2 1/2 octaves above that be important? Especially when tests clearly show that super audible sound can't be heard! The truth is that our perception of sound fidelity depends on the core frequencies, particularly the ones in the sweet spot of hearing from 2kHz to 5kHz. It doesn't depend on the bleeding edges of human hearing and beyond.

Generally, it's good to firmly establish if something is audible first, then you can start thinking up reasons why it might be important. When you think up reasons for the importance of sound that it turns out you can't even hear, you can end up chasing down the wrong end of the rabbit hole.
 
Last edited:
Aug 24, 2019 at 6:41 PM Post #1,138 of 1,344
Yet the very introduction to that study states that no appreciable sound is beyond 24khz with the natural voice, and they’ve modulated the signal (applying their own artificial environment). Their setup was also very different from your premise that people might perceive ultra high frequencies from regular audio systems.
Indeed , but I didn't quote the introduction .
It is as labelled a hypothesis .

"a supposition or proposed explanation made on the basis of limited evidence as a starting point for further investigation."

It is up to you how you look at it and your estimation of its relevance .
 
Aug 24, 2019 at 6:53 PM Post #1,139 of 1,344
@castleofargh , @bigshot , @gregorio
Hi guys . I will more succinctly outline my position and perhaps save you the trouble of trying to educate me .
If I consider the thread title strictly then of course you are absolutely undeniably correct .
However being a public forum the title can be seen as open to interpretation and I observe that many interpret "audible" in a way that invites the human / machine interface into the question .
To that end I am thinking outside the box trying to avoid the circular arguments contained within .
Unfortunately the box seems to have gravity .
 
Aug 24, 2019 at 7:13 PM Post #1,140 of 1,344
Indeed , but I didn't quote the introduction .
It is as labelled a hypothesis .

"a supposition or proposed explanation made on the basis of limited evidence as a starting point for further investigation."

It is up to you how you look at it and your estimation of its relevance .

But it's not just the introduction you're taking out of context for your assertion that ultra high frequencies have a relevance for gauging audio equipment. The whole study you've referred to has said the original frequencies could not go above 24khz, and that they were modulating the signal and inducing an artificial environment. The conclusion for their study is to make of it what you will with specialized equipment that stimulates audio signals beyond regular ear interaction, and they are not disputing accepted studies for acoustic hearing ranges. To put it more succinctly, music sources do not have such ultra-high frequencies, and most audio reproduction has negligible bone conduction with high frequencies.
 

Users who are viewing this thread

Back
Top