[Stikk]

Quote:

Originally Posted by HellaChinese /img/forum/go_quote.gif this sounds awesome quit bashing it before we get a review. stats mean very little by themselves

Chill out there, we're not "bashing" them. They're customs so even if someone ordered them as soon as this thread started, no one would have them yet so we are discussing what we think they MIGHT sound like, based on the specs the manufacturer provides us with. That's all we've got at the moment.

I, personally, don't think they would sound noticeably better than a well designed 1/2/3 driver setup out there. The more low quality components you put your signal through before it gets to your speaker, the worse it's gonna sound and the fact of the matter is, at this size, you're limited to low quality components, in the form of SMD caps, resisters and (depending on the x-over) induction coils.

Actually, just wondering, does anyone know what kinda x-overs these kinds of IEMs have in them? Are they first, second or third order? Cuz if they're second or third, they'd need induction coils and I dunno if you can even get SMD induction coils, can you?

EDIT: Yes, you can.. Had a quick look around, you can get them as small as about 2mmx1.5mm but couldnt find any info on their actual ratings do dunno if you could even use them for x-overs.. Still curious about how these x-overs are designed if anyone knows?

 

[PhoxHound]

all that extremely tiny driver working sounds like it would be incredibly hard to do without messing it up, but it sounds as though it could have great potential. of course I'm not going to spend the 1000 dollars to find out.

 

[ammo510]

Wow 5 drivers. Now with 1 more tweeter I wonder how it is going to compete with the UE11. I was going to order the UE11 around start of november. Now I want to see how the z5 compares to ue11. So i decided to do some research which was basically googling to look for any background information on the past custom series they have. I found nothing but their old website layout. I found no reviews on their products but it seems like their Z5 been out since 2006.

Z5 Music Monitors

 

[AzN1337c0d3r]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Maxvla /img/forum/go_quote.gif I disagree. The low impedance earbuds that came with my Zune I play comfortably around 6/20. My Q-Jays are 39 ohm and typical comfortable level is 10-11/20. Nearly doubling that will take the volume up to at least 15 or more, which will end up giving you less battery life.

Your knowledge of basic electrical theory is appalling.

If you make a simplifying assumption that impedance = resistance (which is mostly true for headphones, they aren't coiled that much compared to REAL inductors):

P = IV (power equation)
V = IR (Ohm's law)

Combining the two, we get P = V^2/R.

That is.... voltage being constant (true for digitally controlled outputs, such as ones found in your DAP). Power consumed is INVERSELY PROPORTIONAL to resistance.

As resistance goes up, power consumed goes down.

The downside to raising impedance too high, is that you need a fairly large voltage to generate the power you want. That is, your batteries cannot supply enough voltage to make the power you want, not because it's inefficient.

Of course all of the above is just the electrical part of this. You now have to factor in how efficient the drivers are at converting electrical energy to mechanical energy. This varies from headphone to headphone and is a function of the design of the drivers.

Impedance is not the correct value to be looking at if you want to know how efficient headphones are. Sensitivity (dB/W) is.

 

[Sovkiller]

Quote:

Originally Posted by qusp /img/forum/go_quote.gif I think you may have misunderstood what I was saying; I CAN hear those annoying novelty ringtones that are supposed to be only heard by kids and dogs rather than your parents I don't know if I could understand what you were saying if you were talking at that pitch but its there, so I cant sauy I can hear at any great ACCURACY at that freq I'm unsure of how much bearing it has on making an IEM sound more natural. I'm 34 and i've still got most of my hearing and other faculties (just ). But it seems we are on the same page regarding what is actually important and that is the ability to convey nuance and natural detail at all frequencies. Rather than just upping the specs, number of drivers and dynamic range I think something needs to be done about resonance and /or the modeling of it. the fact that IEM's are practically without any venue(no space) for frequencies to resonate, may have something to do with why they sound unnatural sometimes. full size headphones still have some sort of chamber for sound to echo around in so maybe thats why they sound more natural. I don't know for sure either; this is just something i've been thinking about, but I know what you are saying, I do love IEM's but there could be more done to improve the 'feel' of them.

Well not sure if that is the reason or not, as I told you before, but it seems that the very high freqs have also an impact in the way we perceive the natural timbre of the instruments in the upper range.
The Qualia and the new SA line from Sony are well known for the very good high freq performance (regardless of if you like the sound or not) those go up to 120KHz. SACDs go well into freq we can not hear, and they sound better than the standard CD's (well mastering process has a roll here but anyway). There are certainly a few articles on how the use of supertweeters, for example, that go up to 100KHz (some even over) will make your speakers sound a lot more natural (see here one of them) even while we can not hear them. Also a couple of companies that have been involved on this are known for producing some of the more legendary and sweet sounding speakers, among them Tannoy and AV123, so I would say that there is something real in that. Personally I have no experience with them, but according to some articles they increase realism of the sound...But I would like to hear one that will not chop the freqs so low to see if that add some realism or not to the high end...

 

[jinx20001]

155db!! thats just silly, dangerous and a pointless stat, i own the se530 which are rated at 119db and at high volume they are loud time!!!, just reading these can achieve 155db at the same ratings as the se530 has put me right off.

just imagine the hisssssss, and dual tweeters, thats plain dumb, i hate to slag off something i have not heard but this is clearly a company that is aiming for the clueless, who think more drivers is better because ive never seen the need for more than one tweeter.

 

[Maxvla]

Quote:

Originally Posted by AzN1337c0d3r /img/forum/go_quote.gif Your knowledge of basic electrical theory is appalling. If you make a simplifying assumption that impedance = resistance (which is mostly true for headphones, they aren't coiled that much compared to REAL inductors): P = IV (power equation) V = IR (Ohm's law) Combining the two, we get P = V^2/R. That is.... voltage being constant (true for digitally controlled outputs, such as ones found in your DAP). Power consumed is INVERSELY PROPORTIONAL to resistance. As resistance goes up, power consumed goes down. The downside to raising impedance too high, is that you need a fairly large voltage to generate the power you want. That is, your batteries cannot supply enough voltage to make the power you want, not because it's inefficient. Of course all of the above is just the electrical part of this. You now have to factor in how efficient the drivers are at converting electrical energy to mechanical energy. This varies from headphone to headphone and is a function of the design of the drivers. Impedance is not the correct value to be looking at if you want to know how efficient headphones are. Sensitivity (dB/W) is.

Thanks for the education, albeit with a slap to the face...

I don't have any training in the math behind electronics. I was simply basing my argument on the results in volume when I tried some of the headphones I have around the house. Each time I raised the ohms the volume setting had to be increased noticably.

Going from the included earbuds (which I can't find any specs for) at volume 6 to Q-Jays (39ohm 95db) at volume 10 to Sennheiser HD580 (300ohm 97db) at volume 16 you can see even looking at sensitivity why I could see this and think ohm increase is the reason of the volume climb. Pardon me for trying to use real experience to guide myself.

 

[jinx20001]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Maxvla /img/forum/go_quote.gif Thanks for the education, albeit with a slap to the face... I don't have any training in the math behind electronics. I was simply basing my argument on the results in volume when I tried some of the headphones I have around the house. Each time I raised the ohms the volume setting had to be increased noticably. Going from the included earbuds (which I can't find any specs for) at volume 6 to Q-Jays (39ohm 95db) at volume 10 to Sennheiser HD580 (300ohm 97db) at volume 16 you can see even looking at sensitivity why I could see this and think ohm increase is the reason of the volume climb. Pardon me for trying to use real experience to guide myself.

dont let the guy try to outwit you, i myself think the ''ohmage'' has an effect on volume levels since we are talking about the ability to drive the phones, and higher ohm's usually means its harder to push, hence needing more juice for more volume.

the guy is just trying to sound clever and in reality your right the ohm's do have an effect on volume and how much juice you need to give

 

[Sovkiller]

Quote:

Originally Posted by jinx20001 /img/forum/go_quote.gif "...just imagine the hisssssss, and dual tweeters, thats plain dumb, i hate to slag off something i have not heard but this is clearly a company that is aiming for the clueless, who think more drivers is better because ive never seen the need for more than one tweeter..."

I felt the same way, one is enough, till I got my M80 from Axiom which have two tweeters and trust me that they sound so sweat...

The hiss has nothing to do with the amount of tweeters but with the noise in the recording, or source, or amp, the double tweeters is IMO not bad if the tweeters are good, but if both are going only to 18KHz, as this seem to be the case, what is the point honestly?

 

[jinx20001]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sovkiller /img/forum/go_quote.gif I felt the same way, one is enough, till I got my M80 from Axiom which have two tweeters and trust me that they sound so sweat... The hiss has nothing to do with the amount of tweeters but with the noise in the recording, or source, or amp, the double tweeters is IMO not bad if the tweeters are good, but if both are going only to 18KHz, as this seem to be the case, what is the point honestly?

yeh i think the word i was looking for is more like sibilance, or pain lol

regarding hiss tho, the sensitivity suggests there may be plenty of hiss with lets say your everyday ipod

edit: also i agree on your tweeters point, there have been home systems incorporating more than one tweeter per speaker for years, often reffered to as super tweeters or a similar name, but yeh with in ear monitors i cant imagine 2 tweeters putting out the same sound being an advantage, just more space and more crossovers needed.

 

[AzN1337c0d3r]

Quote:

Originally Posted by jinx20001 /img/forum/go_quote.gif dont let the guy try to outwit you, i myself think the ''ohmage'' has an effect on volume levels since we are talking about the ability to drive the phones, and higher ohm's usually means its harder to push, hence needing more juice for more volume. the guy is just trying to sound clever and in reality your right the ohm's do have an effect on volume and how much juice you need to give

You're confusing cause and effect here, just because there's correlation between ohmage and sensitivity (it's more common to find higher-ohm phones with lower sensitivity) doesn't mean that ohmage determines sensitivity...

It's rather easy to demonstrate why this is wrong, try plugging in monitor speakers (typically 4 to 8 ohm) into a Cmoy. Do the speakers make any appreciable volume when amplified only by a Cmoy? Doubt it. Will a Cmoy drive HD650 (300 ohms) to ear-splitting levels? Sure will.

"The ohmage is lower therefore, it's louder" is not necessarily a true statement.

However, "The sensitivity is higher, therefore it is louder" is ALWAYS a true statement.

Regardless he was not complaining about ohmage vs sensitivity or about how hard the headphones are to drive, that is a whole other ballpark. He was complaining about volume produced vs battery life used up. The sensitivity metric (dB/W) is a direct measurement of the parameters that concern that issue.

 

[Sovkiller]

Quote:

Originally Posted by AzN1337c0d3r /img/forum/go_quote.gif You're confusing cause and effect here, just because there's correlation between ohmage and sensitivity (it's more common to find higher-ohm phones with lower sensitivity) doesn't mean that ohmage determines sensitivity... It's rather easy to demonstrate why this is wrong, try plugging in monitor speakers (typically 4 to 8 ohm) into a Cmoy. Do the speakers make any appreciable volume when amplified only by a Cmoy? Doubt it. Will a Cmoy drive HD650 (300 ohms) to ear-splitting levels? Sure will. "The ohmage is lower therefore, it's louder" is not necessarily a true statement. However, "The sensitivity is higher, therefore it is louder" is ALWAYS a true statement. Regardless he was not complaining about ohmage vs sensitivity or about how hard the headphones are to drive, that is a whole other ballpark. He was complaining about volume produced vs battery life used up. The sensitivity metric (dB/W) is a direct measurement of the parameters that concern that issue.

But you can find speakers with the same sensitivity of some headphones, and they will still cannot be powered by a Cmoy...The case is that headphones and speakers work differently, the headphones go extremelly close to the ears, which make them not necesarily to be so loud as speakers...OTOH speakers need a lot more power as the distance to your ears is far more, also the isolation is different, in a room during the day the noise floor is around 40-60db, AC, Fridge, car noises, etc...in headphones that figure decreases considerably...

 

[wuwhere]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Maxvla /img/forum/go_quote.gif Thanks for the education, albeit with a slap to the face... I don't have any training in the math behind electronics. I was simply basing my argument on the results in volume when I tried some of the headphones I have around the house. Each time I raised the ohms the volume setting had to be increased noticably. Going from the included earbuds (which I can't find any specs for) at volume 6 to Q-Jays (39ohm 95db) at volume 10 to Sennheiser HD580 (300ohm 97db) at volume 16 you can see even looking at sensitivity why I could see this and think ohm increase is the reason of the volume climb. Pardon me for trying to use real experience to guide myself.

Yea, don't let him outsmart you. That's just Ohm's Law. Our hearing is a lot more sophisticated than that.

 

[AzN1337c0d3r]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sovkiller /img/forum/go_quote.gif But you can find speakers with the same sensitivity of some headphones, and they will still cannot be powered by a Cmoy...

Pardon my ignorance as to speaker technologies, but could you please link to said speaker transducer? The only stipulation are that it operates on a dynamic or balanced armature principle and must have (roughly) the same sensitivity. AFAIK, the only speakers with that kind of sensitivity ARE headphone transducers. Mainly because headphone transducers ARE speakers transducers with a few minor alterations.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sovkiller /img/forum/go_quote.gif The case is that headphones and speakers work differently, the headphones go extremelly close to the ears, which make them not necesarily to be so loud as speakers...OTOH speakers need a lot more power as the distance to your ears is far more, also the isolation is different, in a room during the day the noise floor is around 40-60db, AC, Fridge, car noises, etc...in headphones that figure decreases considerably...

While what you speak is true, I was assuming ceteris paribus (all other things being equal). Of course this isn't a very practical way to listen to speakers (in a room with -30 dB isolation, measurement distance at 1 inch away from the center of the transducer, etc etc). But it CAN be measured, and it will turn out to be just as loud. (SPL)

My point was not to argue about how one perceives sound, but the actual objective measurement of sound and power and their conversion from electrical power to acoustical energy.

 

[jinx20001]

all i wanted to say is theres no need to undermine people because you think you know something they dont, my point was the ohms does have an effect on the amps ability to drive, its that simple.

headphones and speakers are very different, speakers are much bigger for a start so an 8ohm speaker is always going to be harder to push with a portable amp rather than an 8 ohm headphone.

this is why we have headphone amps and speaker amps, im sure if you squish down to headphone size a speaker then a headphone amp will indeed push it.

ive been dealing with subwoofers for some time and the lower the ohms go the thicker the surround and material used is, lower ohm speakers are always built stronger, thicker and harder.

so in the case of speakers if you want to drive low impedance speakers you do generally need a stronger amp, which is the total opposite of headphones which need more power the higher the headphone ohm