Question about FIR Filtering
Sep 2, 2023 at 12:20 PM Post #46 of 69
It’s not worth replying to you. You don’t know what you’re talking about and you don’t listen to learn things you don’t know. There’s absolutely no purpose to your posts. I’m sure you think it makes you look smart talking about all this theoretical stuff, but the opposite is true. I’ll speak past you from now on because you clearly don’t want input, only validation.
 
Sep 2, 2023 at 1:23 PM Post #47 of 69
and subbass is just needed in home theatres
if its audible and apparently it is if its "specially" used in movies then it will also be used in music if you listen to the right stuff
In movies we have explosions, car/train/plane crashes, earthquakes, artillery battles, buildings falling down, volcanoes erupting, etc. You keep going on about trusting your hearing but you apparently can’t hear that music doesn’t contain these things or what the lowest notes musical instruments play. Now that really is hilarious! And if that’s not already ridiculous enough, you’re also apparently ignorant that in movies we use an additional dedicated sub channel and as even that is not enough, we boost it by an additional 10dB, because humans are relatively insensitive to frequency even 3 or 4 octaves higher than your ridiculous 10Hz!!
you need to combine theory and practice sometimes
Then why do you ignore and even contradict the theory/facts, also screw up the “practice” by not testing using your hearing (but only your biased perception), let alone ever combine them? Hypocrisy!
a subsonic filter has in my chain -100%- a audible effect
As you haven’t tested audibility only your biased perception, you’re yet again lying!
you just get high levels of excursion with low frequencys
If you get high levels of anything with a filter, speaker or whatever, from a very low level input signal then either:
1. You’ve broken the laws of thermodynamics, will definitely be winning the Nobel Prize for physics, have solved the world’s energy crisis and will be fabulously wealthy OR
2. You’re completely nuts.

As you’ve already proven #2 numerous times over, I’ll take a wild stab in the dark and go with option #2!

G
 
Sep 2, 2023 at 2:30 PM Post #48 of 69
but you apparently can’t hear that music doesn’t contain these things or what the lowest notes musical instruments play. Now that really is hilarious!
yea there is more than instruments in music...

Then why do you ignore and even contradict the theory/facts, also screw up the “practice” by not testing using your hearing (but only your biased perception), let alone ever combine them? Hypocrisy!
because i learned that "your facts" of audibility etc are for the most part bull :)
look at @AlphaAudio on youtube, they measure noise that is way under "theoretical" audibility but still matters but you guys dont get that because you hold on to your half ass done studys

If you get high levels of anything with a filter, speaker or whatever, from a very low level input signal then either:
1. You’ve broken the laws of thermodynamics, will definitely be winning the Nobel Prize for physics, have solved the world’s energy crisis and will be fabulously wealthy OR
2. You’re completely nuts.

As you’ve already proven #2 numerous times over, I’ll take a wild stab in the dark and go with option #2!
but the signal isnt always "low", hell im talking about explosions in movies :wink:

btw it isntt just preringing of the subsonic filter i was hearing, i can also kinda clearly hear a difference between overall FIR vs IIR with the same filters... but if done right the non existent phase shift outweights the minimally introduced preringing (of some mild shelf filters) so FIR still wins (for me), if you know what to listen for you will hear preringing, not necesseraly "directly" but more kinda of indirectly because it sounds like the overall sound got a bit mudier, sharp transients will not sound as dynamic imo because there is always some background stuff going on around the transient because of preringing
 
Sep 2, 2023 at 2:50 PM Post #49 of 69
You ask questions, then you argue with the answers you get. You seem to think that arguing makes you a peer with us. I can see how you might think that, but the truth is it's pointless to argue for the sake of arguing. Respect is based on knowledge and the ability to communicate it to others, not making stuff up then arguing to defend it even if you know you're wrong. If you truly believe what you say, then you must realize that asking questions in Sound Science is never going to give you the validation you seem to crave. Do you enjoy the abuse?
 
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Sep 2, 2023 at 3:02 PM Post #50 of 69
@Ghoostknight

Let me outline a couple of steps that you could take to make members take your questions more seriously here. I see you really don't want to do any blind tests so I won't mention that again.

1) First, you would have to establish that the music you are testing with contains significant amount of power below 20Hz. While it's possible that some instruments generate such frequencies (such as pipe organs or very loosely, essentially "faulty" tuned bass/kick drums are the ones that I can think of the top of my head) these would also have to be picked up with a capable mic and then not get filtered by the people making the mix/master. These frequencies can also be generated accidentally like kicking the mic stand or a singer breathing into the mic that can capture such low frequencies. Both the accidental and the delibarate cases can happen sometimes but that's not something that should happen on every music that contains bass. In general, that would be a hallmark of a low quality recording and/or no effort put in the mixing and mastering stage.

Since you mentioned that it happens to most of your music, what's more likely is that you are deceived by your real-time spectrum analyzer. All spectrum analyzers have to deal with something called "spectral leakage". You are very likely viewing a real-time analyzer that must use a short time window (to make the graphics look more "real-time") which further exacerbates this problem. If you are too lazy to watch/understand the video, the point is that just because your analyzers shows crap at (or below) 20Hz does not mean that there's any signal there. The analyzer isn't "inaccurate" really, it's just that it's often misunderstood what the analyzer is actually showing. If you can't set the window size and shape of your analyzer (and don't understand how it relates to the input signal), you can't ever be sure what's shown by it.

Here's a gif of what I'm talking about (click to download and view it). I'm feeding a sweeping pure tone to the analyzer yet there's all kind of "crap" around the main tone. There's seemingly an alarming amount of low frequency content, as if I were feeding more than just 1 sweeping harmonic to the analyzer. Your analyzer is doing the same although it might be less visually apparent if you are using a "bar graph" view. Again, there's no low frequency content in the analyzed signal, it's just the analyzer doesn't quite show what you would expect it to show.
swp2.gif

2) Second, in case the existence of the low frequency content is established (again, very unlikely), you would have to show that the filter you are applying is actually supposed to be transparent. Just because you say that your filter doesn't attenuate frequencies above 20Hz and some fancy graphics show you that, that doesn't make this assertion true at all. I'm sorry to bring up some of your other posts but in this case I think they are relevant. I remember you struggled to get bit-perfect output from your browser somehow. I remember that you were searching harmonics at 16kHz in a 8kHz square wave. I remember you didn't even try to anti-alias a 44.1-48kHz sample rate square wave that had the fundamental well into the kHz range. I remember you claimed that an FFT EQ is not the same as a FIR EQ. Now, you show that you don't understand FIR filters either. I just remembered that you think if a speaker that has x% THD at some low frequency in its spec sheet you'll have the same THD once you put the speaker in your room. With all these in mind, I simply don't trust you can actually properly high-pass audio in a way it stays transparent. You could capture the digital output of your player with the filter on and off so we could compare if you actually managed to filter the signal properly.

There's just nothing to talk about if we don't know there's actually some low frequencies in your music and if we don't know you are filtering these out properly.

Even with these out the way, your original question does not make sense at all, although you managed to somewhat clear up on that at least.
A symmetric FIR filter and the typical IIR filter will show the same amount of ringing if you use the same input signal, and the filters have the same magnitude response. The difference comes from how the ringing is distributed: IIR filters only have post ringing while the symmetric FIR equivalent will have have half the ringing as post ringing and half the ringing as pre-ringing. I did some filtering to bass heavy edm tracks and I ended up with RMS differences around -55dB. I can't stress how unlikely that this would make any real world difference. If you can't get such a low number your filter might actually suck or you don't know how to properly compare audio files which would be equally as unsurprising although how much it sucks (and whether audibly or not) depends on how much higher your differences are.

I think that somewhere you said that an IIR filter would have more phase shift at low frequencies compared to higher frequencies with all else being the same which is just simply not true. If you set an IIR highpass at 100Hz it would have the same phaseshift at 100Hz as if you set this same filter at 1000Hz and checked the phaseshift at 1000Hz.
I would say that you could check this for yourself but frankly I doubt you have the competence for that and I don't know how else I could convince you of this.

Properly answering you takes a long time because you try to keep the discussion technical and yet you are wrong on so many levels that anyone trying to explain you anything would have to go back to basics and start with adam and eve so to speak. Most of it gets lost on you too and people trying to explain how things work will eventually run out of patience if you keep ignoring their points.

Unless you have questions about how to verify (1)that your music consistently contains such low frequencies, how to verify (2)that you filter properly, or how to verify (3)the amount of differences between the original or unfiltered audio, I won't be replying to you because arguing about your "theories" is absolutely pointless.
 
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Sep 2, 2023 at 3:39 PM Post #51 of 69
He’s using nearfield monitors without a subwoofer I think. There’s no sub bass in that equation. No excursion distortion either.
 
Sep 2, 2023 at 3:54 PM Post #52 of 69
He’s using nearfield monitors without a subwoofer I think. There’s no sub bass in that equation. No excursion distortion either.
While this is a practical answer, if I noticed that some of my music had DC in it, I definitely would filter it out and normalize the signal again to gain some volume. If the signal gets to the coil, the power is dissipated anyways and it would heat the coil even if the cone did not move enough to produce a significant amount of acoustic power. In practice, I'm 100% sure that most of his music doesn't have anywhere near enough "subsonic frequencies" to matter, and I'm almost sure that virtually all active monitors filter out near DC components before sending the amplified signal to the voice coil anyways.
 
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Sep 2, 2023 at 5:23 PM Post #53 of 69
I think he's thinking up solutions to problems that don't exist. In the audiophool world, he certainly isn't the only one to do that. If he actually can hear a difference between filtered and unfiltered, the solution is causing the problem.
 
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Sep 2, 2023 at 7:04 PM Post #54 of 69
yea there is more than instruments in music...
So you do think you hear explosions, car/train/plane crashes, etc., in music then? You really need to visit an audiologist!
because i learned that "your facts" of audibility etc are for the most part bull
As I’m quoting the science, then you think science is “for the most part bull”, so what are you doing in this subforum other than trolling?
look at @AlphaAudio on youtube
Your YouTube references are always either ridiculous audiophile marketing or actually accurate but you fail to understand them and then misapply them! Post an actual link and let’s see which it is.
but the signal isnt always "low", hell im talking about explosions in movies
That’s a lie, you/we were talking about music recordings but as you brought it up, do you have any idea how we design explosions in movies? (Opens the door for more stupid/ignorant nonsense!).
btw it isntt just preringing of the subsonic filter i was hearing
Another lie, you do not know what you “was hearing” because you never test what you’re actually hearing, you only test with your biased perception.

@VNandor you made good, accurate points/facts and seem to recognise you’re wasting your time as he’ll simply ignore them. He makes up nonsense to validate his biased perception and poor hearing/listening skills and any facts, no matter how well proven/established he’ll call “half assed” or “bull” because he’s too ignorant and delusional to fact check, understand or accept them. He probably doesn’t know what Dunning-Kruger is and certainly doesn’t realise he’s an extreme example of it, which maybe explains why he’s trying this ridiculous nonsense in a science discussion subforum, or maybe he just enjoys being outed as completely nuts? Lol!

G
 
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Sep 3, 2023 at 4:58 AM Post #55 of 69
not making stuff up then arguing to defend it even if you know you're wrong.
ah yea, that must be it

1) First, you would have to establish that the music you are testing with contains significant amount of power below 20Hz. While it's possible that some instruments generate such frequencies (such as pipe organs or very loosely, essentially "faulty" tuned bass/kick drums are the ones that I can think of the top of my head) these would also have to be picked up with a capable mic and then not get filtered by the people making the mix/master. These frequencies can also be generated accidentally like kicking the mic stand or a singer breathing into the mic that can capture such low frequencies. Both the accidental and the delibarate cases can happen sometimes but that's not something that should happen on every music that contains bass. In general, that would be a hallmark of a low quality recording and/or no effort put in the mixing and mastering stage.

Since you mentioned that it happens to most of your music, what's more likely is that you are deceived by your real-time spectrum analyzer. All spectrum analyzers have to deal with something called "spectral leakage". You are very likely viewing a real-time analyzer that must use a short time window (to make the graphics look more "real-time") which further exacerbates this problem. If you are too lazy to watch/understand the video, the point is that just because your analyzers shows crap at (or below) 20Hz does not mean that there's any signal there. The analyzer isn't "inaccurate" really, it's just that it's often misunderstood what the analyzer is actually showing. If you can't set the window size and shape of your analyzer (and don't understand how it relates to the input signal), you can't ever be sure what's shown by it.

Here's a gif of what I'm talking about (click to download and view it). I'm feeding a sweeping pure tone to the analyzer yet there's all kind of "crap" around the main tone. There's seemingly an alarming amount of low frequency content, as if I were feeding more than just 1 sweeping harmonic to the analyzer. Your analyzer is doing the same although it might be less visually apparent if you are using a "bar graph" view. Again, there's no low frequency content in the analyzed signal, it's just the analyzer doesn't quite show what you would expect it to show.
hmm i get what you mean and i noticed this too but explain to me why i see often full scale at 20 hz
i get that a 40 hz sinewave would show leakage into 20hz but it would not show this at full scale (tho its kinda close)

you guys can check if this album contains sub 20hz stuff :) https://www.deezer.com/de/album/6289144
Look Aggressively Towards the Future (Interactive Bass Test), its not a explosion but i guess its something relateable, lol

20hz
1693730896492.png


40hz
1693730959625.png
 
Sep 3, 2023 at 5:05 AM Post #56 of 69
I remember you struggled to get bit-perfect output from your browser somehow
chromium is just streaming in 48khz and not switching samplerate like firefox, atleast on linux

I remember you claimed that an FFT EQ is not the same as a FIR EQ
atleast with the eq plugin im using they dont sound exactly the same, i know that FFT is just a different/more effiecient way to calculate FIR... in theory

I just remembered that you think if a speaker that has x% THD at some low frequency in its spec sheet you'll have the same THD once you put the speaker in your room
not sure where you got this from but i know that the room has influence on (increases) THD

With all these in mind, I simply don't trust you can actually properly high-pass audio in a way it stays transparent.
how hard it can be to utilize a 12db slope filter? tho you guys can give me a example of a "transparent" filter

I think that somewhere you said that an IIR filter would have more phase shift at low frequencies compared to higher frequencies with all else being the same which is just simply not true. If you set an IIR highpass at 100Hz it would have the same phaseshift at 100Hz as if you set this same filter at 1000Hz and checked the phaseshift at 1000Hz.
I would say that you could check this for yourself but frankly I doubt you have the competence for that and I don't know how else I could convince you of this.
no, i just said this about preringing, not phaseshift of IIR
 
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Sep 3, 2023 at 5:19 AM Post #57 of 69
He probably doesn’t know what Dunning-Kruger is and certainly doesn’t realise he’s an extreme example of it
please, i dont need a crappy study to know that a unknowledge chess player would be more convenient in playing bad plays... more BS... but i guess its some more BS that can be pointed to
 
Sep 3, 2023 at 6:58 AM Post #58 of 69
hmm i get what you mean and i noticed this too but explain to me why i see often full scale at 20 hz
What about at 8Hz, where you’ve set your filter? You already claimed 10Hz and lower accounts for only 1% of the total energy! Clearly you do not “get what he means” and if you’re playing back a signal specifically designed to solely test the sub-bass where in the spectrum do you think it’s going to be at/near full scale? How on earth could you not know that and have to ask someone to “explain to me why”?
you guys can check if this album contains sub 20hz stuff :) https://www.deezer.com/de/album/6289144
Look Aggressively Towards the Future (Interactive Bass Test),
How many music albums do you listen to that have very little content above 100Hz and pretty much none at all above 163Hz? You apparently have this super human hearing that extends way below that of actual human beings, even with speakers that can’t reproduce it but you can’t hear the difference between a test track and a music track? That’s funny!
its not a explosion but i guess its something relateable, lol
You can only “guess it’s something relatable”, you mean you trust your super human hearing that doesn’t know and has to guess?
please, i dont need a crappy study to know that a unknowledge chess player would be more convenient in playing bad plays...
Thanks for proving/confirming you indeed don’t know what Dunning-Kruger is! It is an “Effect” not a study. It is named after a study (that wasn’t crappy) by Dunning and Kruger but there have been numerous studies confirming this effect in a range of fields; aviation, business, medicine and many others, as well as investigations into what causes it. That’s why it’s called an “Effect” rather than a “study” and certainly is not a “crappy study”. You’ve decided all of the contributing scientific studies are automatically “crappy” based on what, the fact that you’ve never read any of them?! Lol

So thanks for also proving my point that anything of which you’re ignorant (and contradicts your made-up nonsense) you just dismiss as crappy or BS. A perfect example of a circular argument based on ignorance!

And if all that is not more than enough, your statement is a lie anyway because apparently you DO need a study (even a crappy one), as you clearly do NOT know “that an unknowledgeable chess player” (or audiophile) “would be more convenient in playing bad plays”. If you did know that, then maybe you wouldn’t so consistently make “bad plays” (make-up and argue nonsense)!!
more BS... but i guess its some more BS that can be pointed to …
Unfortunately, you are too ignorant about the Dunning-Kruger Effect (or that you’re an extreme example of it) to realise who it’s “pointing to”!!

Again, it’s hard to imagine a more extensive or comprehensive proof of “just completely nuts” than your latest responses!! It’s much appreciated that you’ve confirmed this fact but why keep confirming it?

G
 
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Sep 3, 2023 at 10:11 AM Post #59 of 69
hmm i get what you mean and i noticed this too but explain to me why i see often full scale at 20 hz
i get that a 40 hz sinewave would show leakage into 20hz but it would not show this at full scale (tho its kinda close)

you guys can check if this album contains sub 20hz stuff :) https://www.deezer.com/de/album/6289144
Look Aggressively Towards the Future (Interactive Bass Test), its not a explosion but i guess its something relateable, lol
I checked the song and it does not show near full scale harmonics below 20Hz. There is this short sine pluck in the ~30-60Hz range which is what trips up the analyzer although not to the extent that you say so, at least on my end. I don't think the spectrum analyzer you use is meant to be an actual tool, it looks like simple a visualiser.
bass.gif


Here's a picture from the spectrum using the time window between 00:48 and 01:26. Note that such a time window would not make sense for real time analyzers.
spectrum.png
It looks like there isn't much going on below ~36Hz. While short time fourier transforms suffer from spectral leakage, transforming a minute of music and then interpreting that spectrum also have their pitfalls. Imagine transforming an hour long classical concert to the frequency domain. The first harmonic would be at 1/3600Hz, the second would be at 2/3600Hz and so on... While mathematically it's true and irrefutable that the concert was a summation of such frequencies, this is not how your ears and brain interpret the sound. If a track consists of a clap sound repeating every second, that track would have the fundamental at 1Hz. I think we can agree that reproducing this repeating clap sound does not require the speakers to reach down to 1Hz, right?

The way the bass is mixed isn't what's typical but it's not something that would never be seen in other music. You said you see this kind of behaviour on just about all of your music so I was expecting more typical music as the example.

no, i just said this about preringing, not phaseshift of IIR
YES, preringing of FIR filters increase, specially with low frequency and high slope filters, just like the phaseshift usually behaves with IIR filters (meaning higher slope equals more phaseshift(IIR) or preringing(FIR))
Well, the way you write is often chaotic and hard to understand. This makes me think you imply that whenever the preringing increases, the phaseshift also increases which does not always hold true.

not sure where you got this from but i know that the room has influence on (increases) THD
https://www.head-fi.org/threads/frequencys-songs-with-effect-on-the-human-body.966848/page-6

This gave me the impression you would expect to get the spec sheet distortion of your speaker even if you placed it in a room and you at this point were seemingly unaware that the distortion you would measure in room would very likely be higher than the spec sheet number.

atleast with the eq plugin im using they dont sound exactly the same, i know that FFT is just a different/more effiecient way to calculate FIR... in theory
It's not just in theory, this is verifiable (or falsifiable if your plugin works unexpectedly) in practice as well.
 
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Sep 3, 2023 at 4:51 PM Post #60 of 69
The folks who worry the most about frequencies at the very bleeding edge of the audible spectrum are the ones who have no clue whatsoever what the numbers on those frequencies represent in real world sound. Add to that complete ignorance about what is audible and what isn't and a stubborn refusal to accept standard testing procedure to determine audibility, and you have a recipe for pseudo-scientific blather that has no meaning in practice.

What's happening here is every time someone replies to him with a fact disputing his claims, he goes to google and digs up some out of context nugget that sounds like maybe it might back them up. It's the human equivalent of Artificial Intelligence. He doesn't understand his own arguments, much less your responses. It's pearls before swine. Hopefully the lurkers are getting something out of all this.
 

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