[gregorio]

how is the level supposed to change with just implementing a highpass?

What’s the point in implementing a HP filter if it doesn’t change the level?

[1] well for me its enough if i can hear a change [2] that seem consistent and not some "random stuff" my brain might make up

1. As you haven’t ascertained “if you can hear a change” then according to you it is not “enough for you”, so why are you arguing it is?
2. Does your brain only make-up “random stuff” or is it consistent? If it’s the former, then how do you survive outside a secure environment? If it’s the latter then you’re arguing against yourself. I’m assuming you’re not detained in some secure establishment and like the rest of the sane population, your brain does make-up consistent stuff (perceptions)?

G

 

[Ghoostknight]

What’s the point in implementing a HP filter if it doesn’t change the level?

so you guys want me to level match the overall pressure level even 99% of the signal stays the same? what nonsense is this? no wonder blindtest fail if you do it like that, thanks no

to the rest, you wasted your time, again, thanks anyway

 

[gregorio]

so you guys want me to level match the overall pressure level even 99% of the signal stays the same?

So let me get this straight, you’re saying 1% of the total level is at or below 10Hz (it’s probably less than 1%), then why on earth do you need to filter it out? And even if you do and use the wrong filter type, how much pre-ringing are you going to get, how much of it are your speakers going to reproduce and if there’s actually anything at all, how are you going to hear it?

what nonsense is this?

God knows! And why have you wasted 3 pages on this utter nonsense?

to the rest, you wasted your time, again,

We can agree on something! Reading your threads/posts is indeed wasting our time yet again, on your repeated utter nonsense!

G

 

[bigshot]

In the main part of Head-Fi, you can take scientific concepts and terminology and blend them in a blender and use them to cobble together a theory why something that doesn't exist might theoretically exist. Then you can use your unsupported and unverified theory as proof that you have special abilities to hear things that other people can't. It's all a game that is played to gain status with folks who don't actually know the context behind the scientific concepts and terminology, and it works quite well as "smoke and mirrors" with the right audience. But this technique doesn't work at all if you try to use it in Sound Science. We drill straight down to the context as it exists in the real world and the impressiveness dissipates completely.

I don't know why people come here trying to use a technique like that. It just leaves them saying silly things like "my perception is infallible- I trust it completely", and perhaps that's the whole intent... to impress us with their superhuman ability to hear. Investing one's ego in something as fallible and limited as human hearing isn't a good foundation to build upon though. But maybe that's all they have to be proud of in their life.

I think the only scientific theory that applies here is the Dunning Kruger theory.

 

[Ghoostknight]

So let me get this straight, you’re saying 1% of the total level is at or below 10Hz (it’s probably less than 1%), then why on earth do you need to filter it out? And even if you do and use the wrong filter type, how much pre-ringing are you going to get, how much of it are your speakers going to reproduce and if there’s actually anything at all, how are you going to hear it?

car amps, active monitors all have subsonic filters and you tell me its useless? seriously?

easyeffects has a spectrometer and there is nearly always crap going on at 20hz and probably below

 

[bigshot]

What’s wrong with frequencies below 20Hz that you need to filter them out? My system goes down to about 14Hz with no problem. It isn’t crap, it’s sub bass.

Does your system distort when it runs into sub bass?

 

[gregorio]

car amps, active monitors all have subsonic filters and you tell me its useless? seriously?

Pretty much everything filters the low and subsonic freqs. Your speakers start filtering/rolling-off probably around 40Hz or higher, even sub woofers start rolling-off around 20Hz-30Hz and your ears start filtering around 800Hz and by 20Hz is down about 1,000 times (60dB or more). And you want to add yet another filter, an octave or more lower than 20Hz and you tell me it’s actually doing something useful/audible? Seriously?

easyeffects has a spectrometer and there is nearly always crap going on at 20hz and probably below

Your assertions raise 3 blindingly obvious questions, or at least they should be blindingly obvious to a rational mind:

1. What has 20Hz crap got to do with anything? You’re not filtering 20Hz, you’re filtering more than an octave lower than that! How much content is there at around 8Hz where you’ve actually set your filter? Is there substantially less than the already relatively low level at 20Hz?

2. Obviously you’re only measuring the “crap” in the recording, how much crap are you actually getting out of your speakers at 8-10Hz and what about after your ears have filtered it out even more?

3. Yes, a subsonic/rumble filter might be useful somewhere further down the reproduction chain under certain conditions. Namely, AFTER relatively high levels of rumble have been added to the recording from say warped vinyl or road rumble. Is your listening room travelling on a road or installed on a rollercoaster? Even if your building does have some bizarre huge, constant vibration, why would you apply a rumble filter (to the recording) BEFORE that rumble has been added?

Not only don’t you ask these questions but you consistently refuse to answer any of them when put to you, indicating that in fact you do not have a rational mind. And if that’s not already enough, you talk about hearing this non-existent “crap” but don’t want to talk about audibility and ask “what nonsense is this?” when it’s you who started this ridiculous nonsense and just keep blindly repeating it (without a shred of reliable/applicable evidence)?! How is this anything other than just completely nuts?

G

 

[Ghoostknight]

1. What has 20Hz crap got to do with anything? You’re not filtering 20Hz, you’re filtering more than an octave lower than that! How much content is there at around 8Hz where you’ve actually set your filter? Is there substantially less than the already relatively low level at 20Hz?

like i said, the crap isnt stopping at 19hz like a miracle

there is no need for 1-10hz so just filter it out, how hard is that to understand?
you guys deliaberatly tell everyone stuff under 20hz cant be heared and now you are arguing that its nonsense to filter it out? ... lol

2. Obviously you’re only measuring the “crap” in the recording, how much crap are you actually getting out of your speakers at 8-10Hz and what about after your ears have filtered it out even more?

if its in the recording what is bad about filtering it out? no matter if the speakers can reproduce it at full scale, its stuff noone needs and it raises distortion in higher frequencys, no matter what speaker you use

why would you apply a rumble filter (to the recording) BEFORE that rumble has been added?

yea i dont even know what you mean here
1. im not using vinyl 2. the crap is still in most recordings

but don’t want to talk about audibility and ask “what nonsense is this?” when it’s you who started this ridiculous nonsense and just keep blindly repeating it (without a shred of reliable/applicable evidence)?! How is this anything other than just completely nuts?

No, because i trust my ears more than some strangers on the internet or some half ass done studys, its that easy

 

[gregorio]

like i said, the crap isnt stopping at 19hz like a miracle

Who has said the crap is stopping at 19Hz?

[1] no matter if the speakers can reproduce it at full scale, [2] its stuff noone needs and [3] it raises distortion in higher frequencys, no matter what speaker you use

1. There is no 10Hz crap at full-scale to reproduce, it’s very low level to start with and you yourself said it’s only 1% of the signal!
2. Which is why speakers don’t reproduce it and why engineers don’t bother with it.
3. What distortion is raised in higher freqs? You have some actual evidence of that or is this just another of your nonsense ideas?

there is no need for 1-10hz so just filter it out, how hard is that to understand?

It’s very low level and it’s already being filtered out by both your speakers and then again by your ears! How hard is that to understand??

because i trust my ears more than some strangers on the internet or some half ass done studys, its that easy

What “half ass done studys”? Provide links to them or you’re just making-up even more BS. Even if there were some half-assed studies, still they would be more reliable than your no-assed impressions! If you did actually trust your ears then you would obviously test with just your ears but you’re lying, you don’t trust your ears and will only test with your biased perception! And lastly, why would you think I or anyone else here think you should trust us “strangers”? You shouldn’t, you should fact check! Do you know what “facts” are, what “fact checking” is and what encyclopaedias, text books or science is? Apparently not!

So in response to my question: “How is this anything other than just completely nuts?” - You made-up even more BS, lied about trusting your ears and indicated you don’t know what “facts” or “fact checking” are. It’s hard to imagine a better confirmation that it is “just completely nuts”, so very well done, impressive!

G

 

[bigshot]

No, because i trust my ears

That would be fine if there was something between them!

 

[Ghoostknight]

2. Which is why speakers don’t reproduce it and why engineers don’t bother with it.

"but they try to" which is key point here

3. What distortion is raised in higher freqs? You have some actual evidence of that or is this just another of your nonsense ideas?

higher distortion overall if the low frequency driver is loaded with near dc crap

 

[Ghoostknight]

and to bring this nonsense discussion (yet again) to an end:

YES, preringing of FIR filters increase, specially with low frequency and high slope filters, just like the phaseshift usually behaves with IIR filters (meaning higher slope equals more phaseshift(IIR) or preringing(FIR))

So i conclude everyone should listen for themself and decide if they can hear negative sideffects and decide themself if they wanna implement such filters

Thanks for your time, and im out

 

[bigshot]

and to bring this nonsense discussion (yet again) to an end:
Thanks for your time, and im out

Let me hold the door for you... I bid you a cheese fondue.

 

[gregorio]

"but they try to" which is key point here

Oh good, another “key point” that you’ve just made-up and is contradicted by the actual facts. Speakers do not “try to” reproduce it, in fact quite the opposite, they try not to reproduce it. Speakers start rolling-off/filtering around 2 (or more) octaves higher than 10Hz! How do you not know that?

higher distortion overall if the low frequency driver is loaded with near dc crap

Loaded with what, you yourself stated there’s only 1% of the total energy at 10Hz and lower? Even if speakers did not have a roll-off and were trying to reproduce it, how are they “loaded” with only 1% (or less) of the energy? Again, unless you have some reliable evidence of distortion, you’re just making up BS!

YES, preringing of FIR filters increase, specially with low frequency and high slope filters, just like the phaseshift usually behaves with IIR filters (meaning higher slope equals more phaseshift(IIR) or preringing(FIR))

It’s bad enough that you don’t understand the conditions required for pre-ringing and argue from that ignorance but what is “just completely nuts” is that you continue with that same argument even after the actual facts have been explained to you by me, others, reliable sources (such as encyclopaedias) and even by the video you yourself referenced! For the umpteenth time, pre-ringing increases with low frequency, steep slope AND high input level but you yourself have stated the input level is not high, that it’s the opposite, just 1% (likely less). So what evidence do you have that there’s any pre-ringing at all? You’ve presented none at all, you’ve just made-up BS, even though simple logic along with the basic laws of physics taught to school children indicates that even if there were any pre-ringing it would be minuscule.

So i conclude everyone should listen for themself and decide if they can hear negative sideffects and decide themself if they wanna implement such filters

You’re joking right? You think no one listens for themselves, even those who are formally trained and professionally paid to do so? However, your “conclusion” is just hypocrisy because YOU are not listening for yourself, you are going purely on your biased impressions, not on what you’re actually hearing!

and to bring this nonsense discussion (yet again) to an end:

How does repeating (yet again) the same nonsense bring this nonsense discussion to an end? And why do it in this particular subforum, where ignorance doesn’t reign and therefore being “just completely nuts” is more easily identified? Do you actually enjoy demonstrating you’re “just completely nuts”?

G

 

[Ghoostknight]

pre-ringing increases with low frequency, steep slope AND high input level but you yourself have stated the input level is not high, that it’s the opposite, just 1% (likely less).

you are listening to the wrong songs if there isnt much going on under 30-40hz
its as stupid as people saying 40hz is enough for "all" music listening and subbass is just needed in home theatres
if its audible and apparently it is if its "specially" used in movies then it will also be used in music if you listen to the right stuff

However, your “conclusion” is just hypocrisy because YOU are not listening for yourself, you are going purely on your biased impressions, not on what you’re actually hearing!

you need to combine theory and practice sometimes or you are not even knowing what to listen for, this makes you of course more susceptible to bias but its how its

pre-ringing increases with low frequency, steep slope AND high input level

*and gain from filters and filter types i guess
high slope and probably low frequency have much greater effect here regarding phaseshift/preringing then actual level (in my theory book i go from full scale signal not some low ass level of some accoustic stuff or whatever), of course there is no preringing if the filter isnt "loaded" at all but we are not talking about that

Loaded with what, you yourself stated there’s only 1% of the total energy at 10Hz and lower? Even if speakers did not have a roll-off and were trying to reproduce it, how are they “loaded” with only 1% (or less) of the energy?

5hz loads the cone definitely more than say 500hz it doesnt matter what the overall total energy percentage says
its called excursion i think, you just get high levels of excursion with low frequencys which can effect higher notes played at the same time
it might be a different story with different speaker design (say a standalone subwoofer) where it might matter a different amount

---
a subsonic filter has in my chain -100%- a audible effect and in theory if i go by what objectivists say each possible explanation is nonsense
1. filtered subsonics
2. preringing
3. lower distortion
yea objectivists will easly reject my point by saying do a blind test but i honestly dont care, feel free todo so