Purpose/cause of wavy part at high frequencies in FR graph
Jan 27, 2012 at 1:56 PM Post #16 of 27
Makes me wonder:

Setting aside any problems with phase for now, I think there is a way to achieve perfectly flat frequency response with headphones. It can be done by measuring the frequency response of an individuals ear, and then adjusting an EQ to perfectly match it.
Seems like an interesting thing to try, in any case. All you would need are headphones with a flat frequency response (i.e. flat as in the FR of a flat speaker), and an accurate microphone that can be placed between the headphones and the ear without changing the acoustic characteristics.
 
Jan 27, 2012 at 3:42 PM Post #17 of 27
 
Quote:
Makes me wonder:
Setting aside any problems with phase for now, I think there is a way to achieve perfectly flat frequency response with headphones. It can be done by measuring the frequency response of an individuals ear, and then adjusting an EQ to perfectly match it.
Seems like an interesting thing to try, in any case. All you would need are headphones with a flat frequency response (i.e. flat as in the FR of a flat speaker), and an accurate microphone that can be placed between the headphones and the ear without changing the acoustic characteristics.


Id suggest you read this thread, and try the techniques outlined within. 
http://www.head-fi.org/t/413900/how-to-equalize-your-headphones-a-tutorial
 
Its kind of a tricky subject because the "flattest" curve seems to be somewhat specific to the individual. 
 
Jan 27, 2012 at 5:54 PM Post #18 of 27
Actually, all you need is an in-ear mic which you can use to measure the frequency response (near the eardrum) of any headphone. Compare this with the FR of calibrated speakers.
 
Jan 27, 2012 at 6:04 PM Post #19 of 27


Quote:
 

Id suggest you read this thread, and try the techniques outlined within. 
http://www.head-fi.org/t/413900/how-to-equalize-your-headphones-a-tutorial
 
Its kind of a tricky subject because the "flattest" curve seems to be somewhat specific to the individual. 


I'm still a bit skeptical about that technique because it results in a flat frequency response to your ear, which is not the same as duplicating the frequency response at our ears from a flat frequency response speaker (or real life) from a distante source in front of (rather than on) your ears.
 
Point being that a sine sweep of a completely flat speaker in an anechoic chamber (a hypothetical perfect one) will measure completely flat, but it will not sound flat to our ears.  Thus, we want to mimic our ears' perception of real sounds in the real world, which does not mean a headphone that sounds perfectly flat.  It must sound like a perfect flat sound source (i.e. real life sounds, not those being reproduced) does in a given environment.
 
Jan 27, 2012 at 9:34 PM Post #20 of 27
 
Quote:
I'm still a bit skeptical about that technique because it results in a flat frequency response to your ear, which is not the same as duplicating the frequency response at our ears from a flat frequency response speaker (or real life) from a distante source in front of (rather than on) your ears.
 
Point being that a sine sweep of a completely flat speaker in an anechoic chamber (a hypothetical perfect one) will measure completely flat, but it will not sound flat to our ears.  Thus, we want to mimic our ears' perception of real sounds in the real world, which does not mean a headphone that sounds perfectly flat.  It must sound like a perfect flat sound source (i.e. real life sounds, not those being reproduced) does in a given environment.


Saying that the EQ technique descirbed there is not a solution because it does not make the headphones sound like speakers is a strawman. NOTHING except for fairly complicated signal processing can make headphones sound like speakers, and with the problems of real speaker systems why would you want to? There is a limit to what headphones can do in particular with regards to getting the sound "out of your head" but that does not mean we cant bolster their strengths for affordable detail and almost total insensitivity to room effects. 
 
I think its very unfortunate for audiohilia that speakers that measure flat in an anechoic chamber are the standard. Its kind of sucky that so many people are willing to plop down $10K for speakers, but will not spend anything on any sort of measurement or room-correction system. Nor will they even EQ by ear to compensate for the "$10K speakers in a room barely good enough for $500 speakers sound" and yes it sucks as bad as "10 pounds of crap in a 5 pound sack". The fact that the speakers measured flat in an imaginary room is good enough for most people, and Im pretty sure that the funky frequency response brought out by the room is a large part of why I think most speaker systems suck - and the funky interaction with the ear is the same reason I think most non-EQ'ed headphones could use a little help too. 
 
The key for the EQ for me was in the highs. Pay attention to cymbal crashes on a few albums across a few genres. It goes without saying that you should try to find a variety of tunes that you think are well recorded. Even if one or 2 discs are bad the rest will form a consensus.... The thing I hear that is the biggest reason for my enthusiasm for the EQ is that with most headphones without EQ (and certainly the ones that measure the flattest) the cymbal crashes jump in front of the vocalist. Logic says that if the album was mixed well they should be hanging out with the drums. Other things happen weird too - saxophones spread from front to back, very weird indeed. Violins are alllllll over the place. Turn on the EQ, and everything falls into place ooh-so-very-nicely. What I think is interesting is that the same EQ settings work VERY similarly for most of my headphones. The EQ fixes a problem with how our ears work with headphones, not a problem with the headphones.
 
Jan 27, 2012 at 9:44 PM Post #21 of 27


Quote:
Quote:
 

Id suggest you read this thread, and try the techniques outlined within. 
http://www.head-fi.org/t/413900/how-to-equalize-your-headphones-a-tutorial
 
Its kind of a tricky subject because the "flattest" curve seems to be somewhat specific to the individual. 


I'm still a bit skeptical about that technique because it results in a flat frequency response to your ear, which is not the same as duplicating the frequency response at our ears from a flat frequency response speaker (or real life) from a distante source in front of (rather than on) your ears.
 
Point being that a sine sweep of a completely flat speaker in an anechoic chamber (a hypothetical perfect one) will measure completely flat, but it will not sound flat to our ears.  Thus, we want to mimic our ears' perception of real sounds in the real world, which does not mean a headphone that sounds perfectly flat.  It must sound like a perfect flat sound source (i.e. real life sounds, not those being reproduced) does in a given environment.


Actually, I'm pretty sure that for speakers, flat for our ears is a flat FR curve at the listening position. i remember seeing the measured FR curves at the listening position for the room below and they were flat within a 2 dB dB range with only acoustic treatments.
 

 
 
 
Jan 27, 2012 at 11:21 PM Post #22 of 27


Quote:
 

Saying that the EQ technique descirbed there is not a solution because it does not make the headphones sound like speakers is a strawman. NOTHING except for fairly complicated signal processing can make headphones sound like speakers, and with the problems of real speaker systems why would you want to? There is a limit to what headphones can do in particular with regards to getting the sound "out of your head" but that does not mean we cant bolster their strengths for affordable detail and almost total insensitivity to room effects. 
 
I think its very unfortunate for audiohilia that speakers that measure flat in an anechoic chamber are the standard. Its kind of sucky that so many people are willing to plop down $10K for speakers, but will not spend anything on any sort of measurement or room-correction system. Nor will they even EQ by ear to compensate for the "$10K speakers in a room barely good enough for $500 speakers sound" and yes it sucks as bad as "10 pounds of crap in a 5 pound sack". The fact that the speakers measured flat in an imaginary room is good enough for most people, and Im pretty sure that the funky frequency response brought out by the room is a large part of why I think most speaker systems suck - and the funky interaction with the ear is the same reason I think most non-EQ'ed headphones could use a little help too. 
 
The key for the EQ for me was in the highs. Pay attention to cymbal crashes on a few albums across a few genres. It goes without saying that you should try to find a variety of tunes that you think are well recorded. Even if one or 2 discs are bad the rest will form a consensus.... The thing I hear that is the biggest reason for my enthusiasm for the EQ is that with most headphones without EQ (and certainly the ones that measure the flattest) the cymbal crashes jump in front of the vocalist. Logic says that if the album was mixed well they should be hanging out with the drums. Other things happen weird too - saxophones spread from front to back, very weird indeed. Violins are alllllll over the place. Turn on the EQ, and everything falls into place ooh-so-very-nicely. What I think is interesting is that the same EQ settings work VERY similarly for most of my headphones. The EQ fixes a problem with how our ears work with headphones, not a problem with the headphones.



It's not about loudspeakers being a gold standard of any sort, nor trying to make headphones sound like loudspeakers.
 
The problem is how you're "measuring" frequency response with your ears, and you're also ignoring the difference in HRTF from distant sources versus near sources.

 
Quote:
Actually, I'm pretty sure that for speakers, flat for our ears is a flat FR curve at the listening position. i remember seeing the measured FR curves at the listening position for the room below and they were flat within a 2 dB dB range with only acoustic treatments.
 

 
 



Yes, you want to have a measured flat frequency response, and yes, the speakers should sound "flat" to your ears when playing back source material.  The source material is recorded by flat response microphones and preamps, and played back on flat response speakers in a flat response room you should get exactly the same "flat" sound as if you were there in the first place (frequency response wise).
 
However...
 
If you were to play a sine sweep in that flat room with flat speakers, you should hear variations in apparent loudness varying widely over the whole band - at a given signal level, it'd be the opposite of your equal loudness curve - your "apparent loudness" for a flat signal curve.  That would reflect your ears-brain system's frequency response just like the equal loudness curve - so we'd be looking at the same 3 kHz ear canal resonance, 8-10 kHz dip, etc.  On a completely flat response system you would hear those peaks and valleys in a sine sweep - yet music and other real life sounds would sound fine, because we only want what we hear to go through that "apparent loudness" transfer function once.
 
The problem with nikongod's system is that you're attempting to eliminate your ear's natural resonances from the equation altogether - in real life we always hear these resonances/nulls and they sound natural.  EQ a headphone to sound flat in a sine sweep to your ears, and you've just canceled out those resonances and boosted the nulls until they're no longer there.  Once you've done that, you're no longer listening with the same response as you do in real life.  If that's not unnatural I don't know what is.
 
 
On the contrary, I would say that the best way to go about equalizing your headphones as such would be to listen to a sine sweep (and individual tones if necessary) on a nearly perfectly flat speaker/room system, and equalize that sine sweep to sound flat to you.  Then, use that equalized sine sweep to equalize your headphones to sound flat to you.  By doing this you compensate for your ear-brain's equal loudness curve before equalizing, ensuring that you equalize the headphones towards a truly measurably flat response (actually, towards what a flat response far-field source sounds like).  You're not specifically trying to equalize the headphones towards a speaker sound, you're just need some totally flat response transducer to create the sine sweep (preferably far-field [i.e. loudspeakers] unless you specifically want to tune your headphones to sound correct only with binaural ear whispering...).
 
Jan 27, 2012 at 11:57 PM Post #23 of 27


Quote:
I'm still a bit skeptical about that technique because it results in a flat frequency response to your ear, which is not the same as duplicating the frequency response at our ears from a flat frequency response speaker (or real life) from a distante source in front of (rather than on) your ears.
 

 
Quote:
It's not about loudspeakers being a gold standard of any sort, nor trying to make headphones sound like loudspeakers.
 

 
You brought up speakers...
 
Have you ever seen a live show where the cymbals are in front of the vocalist? Why do headphones make everything sound that way? Why is it so easy to get the cymbals back in the back? Why is it so easy to make a VERY cohesive source out of various instruments with compex harmonics (violin, saxophone, certain singers voices, etc)? 
 
Quote:
The problem is how you're "measuring" frequency response with your ears, and you're also ignoring the difference in HRTF from distant sources versus near sources.
 

 
Since the distance from our ears to our headphones is pretty much constant, cant we ignore differences in near and far HRTF?
What else but the ear would we measure FR with? A microphone? I have done it, and EQ'ed headphones ruler flat. It is realllllllllly bad. 
 
Jan 28, 2012 at 12:24 AM Post #24 of 27


Quote:
 
 
You brought up speakers...
 
Have you ever seen a live show where the cymbals are in front of the vocalist? Why do headphones make everything sound that way? Why is it so easy to get the cymbals back in the back? Why is it so easy to make a VERY cohesive source out of various instruments with compex harmonics (violin, saxophone, certain singers voices, etc)? 
 
 
Since the distance from our ears to our headphones is pretty much constant, cant we ignore differences in near and far HRTF?
What else but the ear would we measure FR with? A microphone? I have done it, and EQ'ed headphones ruler flat. It is realllllllllly bad. 


I can't say I've ever interpreted headphones as making cymbals sound in front of vocalists.  To the contrary, vocalists are almost always centered and percussion off to the sides.  In terms of "depth" - well, that all depends on the recording as well.  Not sure where you're getting at with the cohesive source thing - all the transducer is doing is replicating a summation of sine waves...
 
Why would the near-constant distance of headphones (which isn't true between models anyway) exempt us from the difference in near and far HRTF?  The angle matters too, and the wavefront in which the sound hits the body and the ear.  The effect our pinna/head/body has on frontal wavefronts, flat as they are from far sources, is different than that on sound coming from the side or the back.  You're going to excite different resonances and have different phase delays (not in the sense of crossfeed) depending on the angle and the shape of the wavefront (closer sources rarely being flat wavefronts).  This isn't in the sense of how you hear reflections of the sound off of walls, etc. which is a major factor in localization - think more of being outside in a field where there's nothing to reflect sound.
 
"What else but the ear would we measure FR with? A microphone? I have done it, and EQ'ed headphones ruler flat. It is realllllllllly bad."
 
This is why I suggested using loudspeakers to create your own apparent loudness curve for frontal far field sources and applying that to equalizing headphones.  Ruler flat loudspeakers don't sound realllllly bad, do they?  Not at all, since they're acting quite similarly to real far-field sound sources.  So if you create your own frontal far field apparent loudness curve, you can use that to equalize your headphones to replicate those real-world far field sound sources (in frequency response, anyway) like actual bands/orchestras, etc.  That's what the idea behind free field and diffuse field equalized headphones is - to approximate that real-world flat speaker response (just in different manners).
 
Jan 28, 2012 at 1:10 AM Post #25 of 27
Quote:
Yes, you want to have a measured flat frequency response, and yes, the speakers should sound "flat" to your ears when playing back source material.  The source material is recorded by flat response microphones and preamps, and played back on flat response speakers in a flat response room you should get exactly the same "flat" sound as if you were there in the first place (frequency response wise).
 
However...
 
If you were to play a sine sweep in that flat room with flat speakers, you should hear variations in apparent loudness varying widely over the whole band - at a given signal level, it'd be the opposite of your equal loudness curve - your "apparent loudness" for a flat signal curve.  That would reflect your ears-brain system's frequency response just like the equal loudness curve - so we'd be looking at the same 3 kHz ear canal resonance, 8-10 kHz dip, etc.  On a completely flat response system you would hear those peaks and valleys in a sine sweep - yet music and other real life sounds would sound fine, because we only want what we hear to go through that "apparent loudness" transfer function once.
 
The problem with nikongod's system is that you're attempting to eliminate your ear's natural resonances from the equation altogether - in real life we always hear these resonances/nulls and they sound natural.  EQ a headphone to sound flat in a sine sweep to your ears, and you've just canceled out those resonances and boosted the nulls until they're no longer there.  Once you've done that, you're no longer listening with the same response as you do in real life.  If that's not unnatural I don't know what is.
 
 
On the contrary, I would say that the best way to go about equalizing your headphones as such would be to listen to a sine sweep (and individual tones if necessary) on a nearly perfectly flat speaker/room system, and equalize that sine sweep to sound flat to you.  Then, use that equalized sine sweep to equalize your headphones to sound flat to you.  By doing this you compensate for your ear-brain's equal loudness curve before equalizing, ensuring that you equalize the headphones towards a truly measurably flat response (actually, towards what a flat response far-field source sounds like).  You're not specifically trying to equalize the headphones towards a speaker sound, you're just need some totally flat response transducer to create the sine sweep (preferably far-field [i.e. loudspeakers] unless you specifically want to tune your headphones to sound correct only with binaural ear whispering...).


Ok, then, equalizing for equal perceived volume of at the eardrum is a pretty bad idea for headphones, equalized at equal measured volume for headphones is just as bad too. As for your proposed solution, I'm unsure of what you mean, I'm partial to equalizing headphones to match the perceived frequency response of flat speakers in a treated room at your eardrums (but maybe that's what you meant), anyway that's what the Smyth Realizer does automatically (well it other things too), a bit expensive though
wink.gif
.
 
 
 
Jan 28, 2012 at 5:55 AM Post #26 of 27
 

Id suggest you read this thread, and try the techniques outlined within. 
http://www.head-fi.org/t/413900/how-to-equalize-your-headphones-a-tutorial
 
Its kind of a tricky subject because the "flattest" curve seems to be somewhat specific to the individual. 


I have tried the method outlined in the OP of that thread several times, and I even took the time to thoroughly read the entire thread. However every time I tried that technique I was unable tot detect any differences in loudness with my HD 650's at any frequency.

And besides I don't really think that it's necessary all that much in my case. The HD650 already do a good job in absorbing the resonant frequencies of the ear, so all that remains is the HRTF, but in my opinion the HD650's match mine pretty well.
Additionally I use a crossfeed DSP, in which I have adjusted the ILD of high/low frequencies such that everything sounds flatter in addition to having more realistic imaging.


In my previous post I was hypothesizing, I never had any intend to seriously try something like that. Although it could still be an interesting experiment.
It would be even better to very accurately measure the HRTF from a far distance. In addition to that it would be awesome to measure the ILD at all frequencies, as well as getting an accurate measurement of the ITD. This way one could get some insanely realistic binaural playback, I think.
 
Jan 28, 2012 at 10:39 AM Post #27 of 27


Quote:
Ok, then, equalizing for equal perceived volume of at the eardrum is a pretty bad idea for headphones, equalized at equal measured volume for headphones is just as bad too. As for your proposed solution, I'm unsure of what you mean, I'm partial to equalizing headphones to match the perceived frequency response of flat speakers in a treated room at your eardrums (but maybe that's what you meant), anyway that's what the Smyth Realizer does automatically (well it other things too), a bit expensive though
wink.gif
.
 
 


Exactly!  That's what I'm saying - to equalize to match the perceived frequency response of flat speakers in a flat room.  Obviously doing the rest of what the Realizer does is more or less impossible to do yourself.
 

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