[lini]

Quote:

Originally Posted by memepool Sorry to say it but the problem with the 1200 is the tonearm. It doesn't matter how expensive a cart you fit to it because the tonearm's not upto it. In fact anything over a basic MM is a waste of money.

I'd still say that's an overstatement of yours. Did you only get to hear one that was already ruined by heavy djing, maybe?

Somewhat puzzled greetings from Hannover!

Manfred / lini

 

[memepool]

ok perhaps a mild exageration on the cartridges in that you WILL obviously hear a difference between a basic MM and a more expensive cart, but mypoint is that this is insignificant for the money you will spend compared to the diference you will hear between the stock technics and an Origin Live tonearm modified version.

I have had several sets of Technics SL1200s and 1210 and I have tried them with quite decent carts like Stanton 681EEE Ortofon VMS20II, Supex SM100E and Shure M95D as well as the obvious Stanton 500AL but was gobsmacked by a friends OL modded set-up and will be getting of some of these as soon as I have the space for them...

 

[BlindTiger]

How did the Pro Ject 1.2 sound with the blue point?
When I bought my project, they recommended the blue point special too.
My version of the project is the old one without the outboard power supply.
And, all things considered is a MC cartridge better than a MM cartridge?
(that's if I have a phono section that allows use of a MC)

 

[ssportclay]

Quote:

Originally Posted by BlindTiger How did the Pro Ject 1.2 sound with the blue point? When I bought my project, they recommended the blue point special too. My version of the project is the old one without the outboard power supply. And, all things considered is a MC cartridge better than a MM cartridge? (that's if I have a phono section that allows use of a MC)

MC cartridges offer less mass in motion which translates into more potential detail and realistic soundstage.Having said that,I would rather have a good MM cartridge than a poor MC cartridge.

 

[Mr. X]

oh...my.....god....the 1200 is GARBAGE to my ears. I can't believe how infinitely worse this table sounds compared to the Pro-Ject. I played one record (Neil Young's Greatest Hits 200g), and that was all I needed. So much sound was taken away! I REALLY wanted the Technics to be better. I really did. But it just isn't even close.

I feel so much better finally knowing how the 1200 compares to the Pro-Ject w/ the same cartridge, and my dealer was absolutely right. The 1200 is for DJ'ing/Scratching, and it most certainly shows. I apologize to anyone who may not agree, and I don't judge you if you enjoy your setup with a 1200. And no, I don't care to do any modding. I just want a table that's better out of the box. And I'm also not convinced that it's only because this cartridge wasn't the right match for the table.....don't buy it.

The decision has been made. I'm trading in the Technics 1200 and Pro-Ject 1.2 for the Pro-Ject Xperience, with the Blue Point No. 2 fitted....

Contest over.

 

[memepool]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mr. X oh...my.....god....the 1200 is GARBAGE to my ears. I can't believe how infinitely worse this table sounds compared to the Pro-Ject. I played one record (Neil Young's Greatest Hits 200g), and that was all I needed. So much sound was taken away! I REALLY wanted the Technics to be better. I really did. But it just isn't even close. I feel so much better finally knowing how the 1200 compares to the Pro-Ject w/ the same cartridge, and my dealer was absolutely right. The 1200 is for DJ'ing/Scratching, and it most certainly shows. I apologize to anyone who may not agree, and I don't judge you if you enjoy your setup with a 1200. And no, I don't care to do any modding. I just want a table that's better out of the box. And I'm also not convinced that it's only because this cartridge wasn't the right match for the table.....don't buy it. The decision has been made. I'm trading in the Technics 1200 and Pro-Ject 1.2 for the Pro-Ject Xperience, with the Blue Point No. 2 fitted.... Contest over.

Ok enjoy the Project and enjoy your music thats the most important thing but for your information the Technics is actually the better table. It's the tonearm that lets it down.

Once you go beyond entry level turntables (upto 1500 USD or so) which are nicely pre set up (hopefully) and designed to function as an integrated unit you will find that a record player is made up of

the motorboard - basically the motor and platter on which the record sits

the plinth - the support system on which the whole shebang is mounted

the tonearm - the pickup which tracks accross the record

the cartridge / stylus - the needle which actually plays the record.

On the most high-end decks these elements can be are tailored by the end user to meet specific needs or to provide a preferred type of sound

The tonearm basically allows the cartridge to track to it's fullest capabilities so even the cheapest of moving magnet carts like an entry level Audio Technica can sound completely different on different tonearms on the same table.

Ultimately the Plinth and Motorboard are the most important first link in the chain though as Linn proved in the 70's as siting a high quality tonearm on a poorly designed and executed plinth doesn't allow it to work as well as on a well designed and engineering one.

Which brings us to the achilles heal of all budget turntables. Corners have to cut because high quality engineering doens't come cheap and the easiest place to do this is the plinth and motorboard.

The SL1200 motorboard is undoubtedly one of the finest ever conceived and it's built to impecable standards, it's cheap because its been mass produced with little real change on a huge scale for 30+ years. But it's let down by the antiquated tonearm design and to a lesser degree the resonant moulded plinth.

Placing a high rigidity tonearm in the Rega tradition, like the one fitted to your Project (assuming its fairly recent) would level the playing field so to speak and let you listen to what the Technics is capable of.

So I would advise that you put the Technics in a box and next time you are itching to improve your front end, before you blow 1500 on a Scout or whatever is flavour of the month in a Hi-Fi magazine, try the Origin live modifcation. http://www.tonearm.co.uk/dj-technics-arm.htm

For a few hundred dollars you can upgrade your Technics to take on the likes of the Scout. It will stomp all over your Project and pretty much any modern deck you can throw a few 1000USD at.

 

[ssportclay]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mr. X oh...my.....god....the 1200 is GARBAGE to my ears. I can't believe how infinitely worse this table sounds compared to the Pro-Ject. I played one record (Neil Young's Greatest Hits 200g), and that was all I needed. So much sound was taken away! I REALLY wanted the Technics to be better. I really did. But it just isn't even close. I feel so much better finally knowing how the 1200 compares to the Pro-Ject w/ the same cartridge, and my dealer was absolutely right. The 1200 is for DJ'ing/Scratching, and it most certainly shows. I apologize to anyone who may not agree, and I don't judge you if you enjoy your setup with a 1200. And no, I don't care to do any modding. I just want a table that's better out of the box. And I'm also not convinced that it's only because this cartridge wasn't the right match for the table.....don't buy it. The decision has been made. I'm trading in the Technics 1200 and Pro-Ject 1.2 for the Pro-Ject Xperience, with the Blue Point No. 2 fitted.... Contest over.

It was interesting reading how the 2 stock turntables compaired.Even though the Technics deck is far superior to the pro-ject,its tonearm is really pretty crappy as compaired to the Pro-ject's tonearm.It would be interesting to compair your new Pro-ject Xperience Turntable to your Technics 1200 with a Brit Audio OEM Arm1S,(upgraded Rega 250) mounted on it.I would put my money on the Technics to beat it by a pretty fair margin.

 

[blueworm]

I was sold on the technics idea a few months ago.
I hope to do the rega arm mod some time during this year.
From what I have read the technics motor board has one of the lowest levels of wow and flutter 0.025%, and speed inacurracy of 0.002%. http://www.vintagetechnics.com/turntables.htm
Which is only obtainable on => 2000 EURO decks.
my 0.02 EURO

 

[Mr. X]

I'm not a fan of modding. The Technics is not designed to have its tonearm changed. I'm glad you enjoy your table modded with a different tonearm---and I'm sure it drastically improves the table (btw, do they get rid of the lame interconnects that come out of the 1200?)....

However, I have a VERY hard time believing that a modded 1200 will beat out a $999 USD Pro-Ject w/ a good cartridge and excellent interconnects. I just don't see how you can say that a modded 1200 will "stomp all over it".....that sounds like crazy talk to me.......any belt-drive enthusiasts care to share their knowledge on why they would not a agree on 1200 modded vs. a good audiophile table winning out???? We've certainly heard from the 1200 enthusiasts...

 

[memepool]

I wouldn't really call myself a 1200 enthusiast. I have many turntables belt drives, idlers and direct drives and they all have their respective strengths and weaknesses.
I am merely pointing out that the Technics 1200 is a very fine turntable and it's a shame to write it off because of it's tonearm. In fact its one the very best turntables you can buy in terms of the level of engineering. Decks like this were a product of the heyday of turntables when all the major Hi-Fi companies put their R&D resources into the format.

If you check out the http://www.vintagetechnics.com site mentioned above you will see that Technics also supplied tables very similar to the SL1200, like the SL120

with alternative arm cutouts, unsually for SME tonearms. All Origin Live are doing is providing a service that Technics themselves probably no longer see as ecconomical.

Turntables are a niche market and a pretty expensive one to be in. 1000USD is entry level these days unfortunately. In real terms the Technics SL1200 should cost a lot more than that, it cost nearly 300USD in 1975 ! so it's price has remained almost unchanged for 30 years.

How many other similar products can you think of? it's only the fact that it's mass produced almost unchanged by one of the largest industrial combines in the world, Matsu****a, that enables it to be sold at this price.

Check out turntables costing 5 times that much and you will see that the option to choose your own tonearm is not "modding" it's the way turntables have always been sold.

 

[Sleestack]

I had 2 tables running through my former Ray Samuel's XR-10B... a VPI SuperScoutmaster w/ GradoStatement and a SL1200GLD. The SL1200GLD definitely exhibited a higher noise floor, but it was by far the easier table to use and had great build quality. Nevertheless, I do believe the SL1200GLD had the potential to be just as good as the VPI. It would probably take a better arm and some other upgrades, but there is absolutely nothing wrong with the Technics tables IMO and they can be the basis of an audiophile TT setup.

 

[ssportclay]

I know that some of the things that memepool is telling you may seem hard to swallow but he is very correct.Over at Audiogon is a discussion forum.In the analog section is a thread "Building high-end Tables cheap at Home Despot" which will answer most of your questions.Read this before spending any more money.

 

[Mr. X]

Quote:

Originally Posted by ssportclay I know that some of the things that memepool is telling you may seem hard to swallow but he is very correct.Over at Audiogon is a discussion forum.In the analog section is a thread "Building high-end Tables cheap at Home Despot" which will answer most of your questions.Read this before spending any more money.

Thanks, but again...I am NOT interested in modding equipment. I loved how my Pro-Ject 1.2 sounded. In comparison, I hate how the 1200 sounded. I don't buy any claims on here that a modded 1200 is going to sound better than a good $1000 audiophile turntable. No way, you can't convince me.

The Xperience gives me exactly what I'm looking for: a Pro-Ject with a better platter, tone arm, even less noise, and the ability to add a speed box (which isn't compatible with the 1.2). I will be paying for most of it by trading in the two tables I own. The decision has been made, and I can't wait to get that Xperience (should take about three weeks).

Fans of modding 1200: Thanks for your responses, and I'm glad you're happy. Not interested.

 

[ssportclay]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mr. X Thanks, but again...I am NOT interested in modding equipment. I loved how my Pro-Ject 1.2 sounded. In comparison, I hate how the 1200 sounded. I don't buy any claims on here that a modded 1200 is going to sound better than a good $1000 audiophile turntable. No way, you can't convince me. The Xperience gives me exactly what I'm looking for: a Pro-Ject with a better platter, tone arm, even less noise, and the ability to add a speed box (which isn't compatible with the 1.2). I will be paying for most of it by trading in the two tables I own. The decision has been made, and I can't wait to get that Xperience (should take about three weeks). Fans of modding 1200: Thanks for your responses, and I'm glad you're happy. Not interested.

Installing a tonearm on a Technics 1200 is not really a mod any more than changing a bulb in a light fixture.Its a 45 minute job you can do yourself.Anyway increasing ones knowledge of turntables is a rewarding experience in and of itself.It could be of value to you once you decide to upgrade beyond the Xperience.I know I have more headphones than I can use.

 

[memepool]

Mr.X you are totally correct to test things the way you have and trust your ears rather than what anyone tells you in a magazine or hi-fi forum.

But for the benefit of anyone else reading this who is not afraid to mess around with their deck ( which for many is part of the joys of vinyl) and moreover interested in saving themselves money, there is little wrong with the Technics SL1200/1210 that can't be fixed by changing the tonearm.

The idea that Technics is a "DJ" turntable and not an "audiophile" turntable is tenuous to say the least. In 1975 when the SL1200 was released there was no market for "DJ" turntables as we now conceive that term. The SL1200 created this market by being adopted by the fledgling Hip-Hop community and has obviously been copied by everyone ever since.

Technics was the "Audiophile" brand of Panasonic in the same way Toshiba used Aurex and Sanyo aquired Fisher to differentiate their high end products.

Their best turntables were what the Japanese call "statement" products in that they stated the companies concept of technical excellence in audio. Their SP10/SL1000 turntable was the first commercially successful implementation of direct drive, a concept Thorens had been trying to make work since the 1930s'. It was, and is a tour de force used by Broadcasters like the BBC the world over.

So Technics decks have impressive pedigree and that engineering excellence is what has allowed the 1200 to become the workhorse of the DJ industry. But originally when it came out it was just another of Technics offerings to the home audio market and towards the top of the range. The SL110 below commonly came with an SME arm

Anyone who knows anything about turntables will tell you that this is probably the most famous "audiophile" tonearm ever made. I think the arm in the picture is a Stax, a name any Headphone fan should be familiar with. The SL120 I think was basically the SL1200MK1 minus the arm.

The market today for turntables is of course very small and Technics like most Japanese maufacturers now only offer the most basic of belt drive and direct drive decks, aside from the 1200/1210 which is, along with a few Denon models the only surviving example of the glories of a former age.

In fact I would go further and say that the 1200/1210 is in it's own market and this market the one for DJ's and wannabe DJ's is the only reason we still have vinyl today. It accounts for the majority of sales if you check the figures and is what kept the pressing plants going through the 1990's when everyone else had bought the hype of CD's.

We have a renaissance of vinyl now and lots of small specialist companies like Project are making turntables again. This simply would not have been possible without the SL1200.