Pricing, tiers, TOTL, etc. - What is the *material* difference?

Apr 23, 2025 at 10:40 AM Post #31 of 121
There are always exceptions, but I think @Ryokan is correct to suggest that more expensive products are usually better made.

EDIT: I should add that the idea of what constitutes "durable" or "long-lasting" has changed over the decades!! :xf_rolleyes: I note the glued-in non-replaceable batteries in particular, that now feature in so many products.
For sure.

I have made the observation though with DAPs especially that due to the market being so much smaller, there is just less money for QA. And so DAPs just tend to be generally much less stable than their smartphone brethren - but also tend to break more easily. Although the last point is mostly limited to the damn volume wheels in my personal/anecdotal experience. I have two DAPs with volume wheels - and both of those broke after about a year. Headphones and IEMs have fewer moving parts that could break, although with some of the cheap chifi IEMs I have the 2 pin connectors just didn't last...
 
Apr 23, 2025 at 10:50 AM Post #32 of 121
Headphones and IEMs have fewer moving parts that could break
Balanced Armature drivers are not exactly the most shock-resistant if you drop the IEMs. Some users are also complaining about moisture destroying their IEMs very quickly. On the other hand, DAPs with buttons have moving parts, but they move so little that they can be considered static…
 
Apr 23, 2025 at 11:33 AM Post #33 of 121
Balanced Armature drivers are not exactly the most shock-resistant if you drop the IEMs. Some users are also complaining about moisture destroying their IEMs very quickly. On the other hand, DAPs with buttons have moving parts, but they move so little that they can be considered static…
If I wanted to be pedantic (towards my own statement, uhh) I'd add that HEADPHONES have indeed moving parts, like the headband and swivels for the ear pieces.

I wasn't aware that BAs are so fragile. The only IEM I had that kept falling off the ill-fitted 2pin cable I had was a DD. It does seem that the DAP volume wheels are a fairly common point of failure though, worse than buttons, and also in fairly high priced models (well, relatively, going by MSRP...)
 
Apr 23, 2025 at 1:45 PM Post #34 of 121
Not always true. @theveterans mentioned ribbon drivers headphones: these are definitely not mainstream technologies, most likely produced in small numbers, so you have two elements that definitely make them more expensive on one hand, but also play against reliability and durability on the other hand.

Ok but you take a chance buying new unproven tech and often pay for research, limited batches and new tooling, I was referring mainly to conventional drivers.
 
Apr 23, 2025 at 2:18 PM Post #35 of 121
Ok but you take a chance buying new unproven tech and often pay for research, limited batches and new tooling, I was referring mainly to conventional drivers.
I don’t disagree, but even with conventional drivers, even if the HP/IEM is better built (more expensive), the sales volume is against you. So more durable, maybe… more reliable, not always…
 
Apr 23, 2025 at 2:52 PM Post #36 of 121
Ok but you take a chance buying new unproven tech and often pay for research, limited batches and new tooling, I was referring mainly to conventional drivers.
Funny enough, looking up ribbon driver headphones, the first example that came up in my random duckduckgo search was a model selling for a $199 MSRP, basically a tenth of what I thought this would be... So maybe those drivers are already becoming more mainstream...?
 
Apr 23, 2025 at 3:45 PM Post #37 of 121
Headphones and IEMs have fewer moving parts that could break, although with some of the cheap chifi IEMs I have the 2 pin connectors just didn't last...
2-pin has a somewhat poor reputation for durability in general, but of course that’s only if it’s poorly implemented (which is the case with most cheapo Chi-Fi). Fortunately there are also good 2-pin implementations. My anecdotal evidence is my Aful Cantor. Its 2-pin connectors have never come loose even once without me intentionally pulling it out, and one side isn’t tighter/looser than the other. The connectors also feel very sturdy which gives me high hopes for longevity. Higher price usually (not always, looking at you Moondrop) gives you better build quality and QC.
 
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Apr 23, 2025 at 4:35 PM Post #38 of 121
Higher price usually (not always, looking at you Moondrop) gives you better build quality and QC.
You'll NEVER GUESS what brand the IEM that kept falling off my ear was... Well, IS, I still have them and they still work, I just don't like wearing them because well... >_>
 
Apr 23, 2025 at 4:46 PM Post #39 of 121
You'll NEVER GUESS what brand the IEM that kept falling off my ear was... Well, IS, I still have them and they still work, I just don't like wearing them because well... >_>

If the cable is only going to be used on only the one IEM you can easily tighten up a loose 2 pin.

Get some smooth faced pliers and squeeze each pin across its diameter.

You are not squeezing the pins towards each other but squeezing each pin individually.

They don't take a great deal of force to distort the pins out of round and they will be flattened slightly in the direction you squeeze them and get a little wider in the other direction which will make them fit firmly again in the 2 pin socket.

Depending on how hard the pins are they can be made slightly wider with not a lot of force, others take a little more of a squeeze. Go easy and redo it as needed to get the fit snugness that you prefer.
 
Apr 25, 2025 at 7:54 AM Post #41 of 121
With DACs/Amps and especially DAPs there is more to justify large fluctuations in price depending on tier. There's more immediate stuff going on between items. Faster processors, fancier sound chips, more features. So there I *kinda* get it.
Castleofargh pretty much covered everything with IEMs in post #2. DACs/Amps and DAPs are a little different though and I don’t really agree with your conclusion of there being a valid justification of large differences/fluctuations in price/price tiers. 20 years or so ago, expensive audiophile DACs were mostly identical to cheap mass produced DACs, same internals just in an expensive case/enclosure, so the enclosure and of course marketing were the only difference. More recently, the difference in most cases has been similar to the difference with amps, essentially a high R&D and/or component cost in order to either try to:

A. Create a bespoke/boutique design by effectively updating a superseded/outdated technology to give performance which approaches that of modestly priced modern technology. EG. The R2R topology, or tubes is another example.
B. Create a boutique design that increases some aspect of performance which is actually beyond that of modestly priced gear but which is completely superfluous to practical considerations/requirements. EG. Filters with ridiculously tiny transition bands or Femto clocks to reduce jitter, when jitter artefacts in modestly priced gear are already too tiny to even be resolved into sound.
C. In very rare cases, create a design with such poor fidelity that it’s actually audibly poorer. It takes some effort to design something these days which is that bad but still actually functions safely.

Fancier sound chips” is a red herring, there’s only a handful of chip manufacturers and the price difference between the TOTL chips and standard versions is just a couple of bucks or so and “faster processors” are irrelevant to digital audio handling/conversion (but a good way to justify a higher price). “More features” of course depends on exactly what features but again is typically/often just a few bucks or so. This is demonstrated by the fact that you can get feature rich, well performing units that incorporate both DAC and ADC functionality/features including a whole bundle of audio software for around $100.

The difference then (apart from appearance, brand name and price) is marketing; boutique designs that are different to mass produced designs which presents opportunities to falsely market those designs as meaningfully/audibly superior. The disadvantage with these boutique designs, other than the obvious (that you’re paying several/many times more for the same or lower audible performance), is the stability/reliability of esoteric designs.

And just in case you’re under any illusions that this is an unusual or modern audiophile phenomenon, when do you think this was written: “Today, a $1500 power amp is more likely to be a piece of junk than a $300 receiver, which generally delivers decent value for money. Price is no longer a meaningful indicator of quality; it has become a marketing gimmick.”? That was the Editor’s introduction in an audiophile magazine, The Audio Critic, January 1977 edition! (Link here)

G
 
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Apr 25, 2025 at 10:18 AM Post #42 of 121
faster processors” are irrelevant to digital audio handling/conversion (but a good way to justify a higher price).
In my very personal anecdotal use case, the player I have that I think sounds the best (Shanling M6) has a rather slow processor, and that results in it having a sometimes very sluggish UI and frequent crashes from overloading (I think). I also loaded that thing with a pretty well-filled 1 TB micro SD card so it's got to handle a lot of files and album art... I know that faster processors aren't needed for *playback* itself. Just as a clarification. The rest of your points is well taken.

So are we approaching a conclusion that goes towards "price has no correlation to sound quality, higher priced gear sounding superior is (mostly) placebo / "psychophonics," (at least when it comes to DAC/AMP/DAPs) there is no God, up is down, lions lie with lambs"? (I may have gotten a bit dramatic...)
 
Apr 25, 2025 at 4:12 PM Post #43 of 121
the player I have that I think sounds the best (Shanling M6) has a rather slow processor, and that results in it having a sometimes very sluggish UI and frequent crashes from overloading (I think).
That sounds like a design flaw. It was perfectly possible with modestly priced DACs 20 years ago to have UI’s that weren’t “sluggish”. So there’s no excuse today, considering the amount of processing power available for peanuts.
So are we approaching a conclusion that goes towards "price has no correlation to sound quality, higher priced gear sounding superior is (mostly) placebo / "psychophonics," (at least when it comes to DAC/AMP/DAPs) …
We can’t really be “approaching” that conclusion, when it was already reached nearly half a century ago (as per the quote from 1977}. Obviously that just applied to amps as there were no consumer DACs or DAPs in 1997 but it was true within a relatively short period after their introduction; at least by the mid 1990’s in the case of DACs and of course DAPs are the same technology DACs, just with more data storage and file management, which was again something cheaply available for many years.

The area where it’s not necessarily true is with transducers.

G
 
Apr 25, 2025 at 6:04 PM Post #44 of 121
That sounds like a design flaw. It was perfectly possible with modestly priced DACs 20 years ago to have UI’s that weren’t “sluggish”. So there’s no excuse today, considering the amount of processing power available for peanuts.
DAPs nowadays have to do a lot more from a UI and UX standpoint than something from 20 years ago. A player that only does what old players do could be made for pennies I'm sure, but noone would buy a player that requires you to have to press buttons for picking a song while you try to hide the small segmented LCD display from the sun so you see what you are doing.
 
Apr 26, 2025 at 3:10 AM Post #45 of 121
DAPs nowadays have to do a lot more from a UI and UX standpoint than something from 20 years ago.
Agreed but does that really need a particularly expensive amount of processing power to achieve?

G
 

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