[Brava210]

Not being a miserable git but being type 1 diabetic myself, eating sugar has nothing to do with contracting this nasty condition.
But i do understand the funny side or not so funny side

 

[JTori]

Not being a miserable git but being type 1 diabetic myself, eating sugar has nothing to do with contracting this nasty condition.
But i do understand the funny side or not so funny side

Like you, T1D. I see it as you do.

 

[iFi audio]

Not being a miserable git but being type 1 diabetic myself, eating sugar has nothing to do with contracting this nasty condition.
But i do understand the funny side or not so funny side

Like you, T1D. I see it as you do.

It's understandable that you don't see this matter in the same way as non-diabetic folks. The disorder itself of course is no laughing matter, the expression kinda was, but our goal wasn't to offend anyone

 

[Brava210]

It's understandable that you don't see this matter in the same way as non-diabetic folks. The disorder itself of course is no laughing matter, the expression kinda was, but our goal wasn't to offend anyone

I know it wasn't, it's kind of the term itself "Diabetic" as it has two distinct variations. Type 1 which is an autoimmune disease meaning it happens for no apparent reason.
Type 2 which can indeed be self inflicted due to lifestyle etc but not always. So me personally I do not like being tagged as Diabetic, I prefer type 1.
Anyway back to turntable.........

 

[iFi audio]

Anyway back to turntable.........

Sure!

 

[CJG888]

Just ordered a new idler wheel from Audiosilente. Hopefully this should fix the slight rumble.

 

[malocadi]

My first black hole hobby (much tighter budget back then): vinyl. Pictured here is my AT-LP120 with a Nagaoka MP110, removed the internal phono preamp, connected to a Schiit Mani or Hagerman bugle2.

 

[analogsurviver]

Oh dear ... another one.

Are people going to EVER realize that throwing out the in close proximity to tonearm output wires mounted phono preamp and replacing it with adiitional LONG output cable of dubious quality and WHATEVER outboard phono preamp in case of MM cartridges - and Audio Technica MMs in particular - is definitely a - DOWNGRADE ?

MM carts do not like high capacitance in their load - period. The capacitance of internal wires in tonearms is approx 50 pF. The capacitance of external cable of the usual length ( 1 to 1.5 metres ) can be anything from addiional 70 pF ( best possible case, RARELY achievable with presently available cables ) to over 400 pF with some "audiophile grade" cabling. BOTH additional ( and unnecessary) values would kill any AT MM cart - but that 400+ pF would kill ANY MM cart.

That additional cable capacitance when used with a MM cartridge produces FAR worse result than ANY decent phono preamp - even the most inexpensive one. Have a look at phono cartridge loading http://www.hagtech.com/loading.html No phono preamp can restore the mess that additional capacitance introduces in the frequency response - even assuming it has zero input capacitance ( which in rality does not exist; lowest values are around 10 pF, achieved in some TOTL vintage gear and MAYBE modifiable in some current gear ).

The standard course to make - say - AT440MLwhatever palatable is usually bringing the capacitance around or below 100 pF ( VERY hard to do with any external cable) and using phono preamp input resistance lower than the standard 47kohms - around 33 kohms.

AT LP120 - with its internal preamp - achieves even lower capacitance ( only internal tonearm wiring, approx 50 pF ) and most probably uses 33 kohms input resistance - giving AT MM carts MUCH BETTER CONDITIONS to work than with any outboard preamp.

 

[CJG888]

Didn’t Clearaudio once build a phono stage into an SME-mount headshell for this reason? I think it was in the 90s...

 

[analogsurviver]

Yes, it did. Today are even MUCH better designs ( at a price...) for MMs - but even that "half way" solution of preamp close to tonearm bearing ( which can cost almost "nothing" ) runs rings around any external cable feeding outboard preamp when MM cartridges are in question.

 

[malocadi]

Oh dear ... another one.

Are people going to EVER realize that throwing out the in close proximity to tonearm output wires mounted phono preamp and replacing it with adiitional LONG output cable of dubious quality and WHATEVER outboard phono preamp in case of MM cartridges - and Audio Technica MMs in particular - is definitely a - DOWNGRADE ?

MM carts do not like high capacitance in their load - period. The capacitance of internal wires in tonearms is approx 50 pF. The capacitance of external cable of the usual length ( 1 to 1.5 metres ) can be anything from addiional 70 pF ( best possible case, RARELY achievable with presently available cables ) to over 400 pF with some "audiophile grade" cabling. BOTH additional ( and unnecessary) values would kill any AT MM cart - but that 400+ pF would kill ANY MM cart.

That additional cable capacitance when used with a MM cartridge produces FAR worse result than ANY decent phono preamp - even the most inexpensive one. Have a look at phono cartridge loading http://www.hagtech.com/loading.html No phono preamp can restore the mess that additional capacitance introduces in the frequency response - even assuming it has zero input capacitance ( which in rality does not exist; lowest values are around 10 pF, achieved in some TOTL vintage gear and MAYBE modifiable in some current gear ).

The standard course to make - say - AT440MLwhatever palatable is usually bringing the capacitance around or below 100 pF ( VERY hard to do with any external cable) and using phono preamp input resistance lower than the standard 47kohms - around 33 kohms.

AT LP120 - with its internal preamp - achieves even lower capacitance ( only internal tonearm wiring, approx 50 pF ) and most probably uses 33 kohms input resistance - giving AT MM carts MUCH BETTER CONDITIONS to work than with any outboard preamp.

I get your arguments about why this might be a downgrade, but there was absolutely no doubt that there was an improvement to the sound (well beyond confirmation bias). I mulled on lobotomizing my turntable for a while and unfortunately never read about the effect of capacitive load on the cart.

I'd have to wonder though, this procedure bypasses a whole slew of circuitry which undoubtedly provides some impedance for the output signal even in preamp bypass mode, which is the whole argument for the procedure, so wouldn't bypassing all this be even less load for the cartridge even when replaced with some outbound cable?

This is new and interesting information to me and it surprises me that a frequently recommended procedure is actually a detriment to the system.

Sincerely,

Another one.

P.S. fwiw the cable I used is only about 2 feet long.

 

[analogsurviver]

I get your arguments about why this might be a downgrade, but there was absolutely no doubt that there was an improvement to the sound (well beyond confirmation bias). I mulled on lobotomizing my turntable for a while and unfortunately never read about the effect of capacitive load on the cart.

I'd have to wonder though, this procedure bypasses a whole slew of circuitry which undoubtedly provides some impedance for the output signal even in preamp bypass mode, which is the whole argument for the procedure, so wouldn't bypassing all this be even less load for the cartridge even when replaced with some outbound cable?

This is new and interesting information to me and it surprises me that a frequently recommended procedure is actually a detriment to the system.

Sincerely,

Another one.

P.S. fwiw the cable I used is only about a foot long.

I am not familiar with the actual quality of the phono preamp within the LP-120. And I know that Schiit unit is no slouch. I built some modified TC-750 phono preamps into few (vintage) TTs that have been using AT MM carts - and there was no way an outboard preamp - regardless how good otherwise - could have touched the low capacitance load offered by onboard preamp. If the preamp within LP-120 is really poor, then it may well be true what you have observed. But in principle, it has less chances than a snowflake in hell. Given the same level of circuitry, onboard should win - no contest here. Any extra cable adds unnecessary capacitance, no matter how short - and that is the detriment.

But the real deal for the MM carts is capactive load of less or equal to 10 pF (please refer to the Hagerman link again for details ). I am running it since 1993 - and never looked back. Many variants and versions of circuitry are possible - but it has to be stressed that only the best MMs qualify - and that manufacturers themselves are NOT aware which models in their range are suitable - or even perfect - for such application. There ARE models utterly unsuitable - anything requiring per manufacturer's spec capacitive load over about 300pF - and there were, unfortunately, few vintage carts that have been tailor made; none of which are no longer readily available and only show sporadically in usable or even NOS condition for sale.

There are "in between" MM models that can take at least part , if not all advantage of truly low capacitance and extended bandwidth - bringing the level of SQ well above normally expected from MMs, rivalling all but the best LOMCs. Again, they are few and far in between - and , again, most are vintage and in ever dwindling supply. Please do not ask which - because it is hard getting them for personal use , let alone trumpeting about them on forums.

 

[CJG888]

I may try to put a decent DIY phono stage inside the plinth of my 301, attached directly to the SME connector, under the arm base. Should be an interesting comparison to the Tube Box DS with vintage Mullards...

 

[CJG888]

The Audiosilente idler wheel has been fitted, and is running in. It took about 5 mins to fit (using the original bushes, which are in good condition), after I removed a load of LM grease...

Lubrication is now by sewing machine oil.

Will listen to it tomorrow morning, once everything has bedded in. Funnily enough, although the new idler spins freely (and for a long time), the platter no longer runs fast. No idea why this should be. The ticking noise from the idler has also disappeared!

Hopefully the slight rumble has now been cured!

 

[CJG888]

It’s definitely quieter!