[cmander10]

Ultimately, a physical chip is going to provide more performance than a program (especially a free one). The sound card will take a small load off your CPU and is going to give you better positioning. You can have your own opinion on the worth of a sound card, but read reviews by actual owners and you will see there is definitely an improvement, so you decide if its worth the cost: money and adding another component into your PC. For me, I think it will be. I am going to get one (Sound Blaster Z), and see how I like it (most likely will).
 
Really, you will have to try the different brands for yourself as there really is no universal opinion. Also look at the DSP ship since that is your main concern. A $80 model may have the same chip as a $200 model. The $200 model may be focusing more on its DAC or amp.
 
As far as improving the surround, with no concern on audio quality, get a multi-driver headphone! Really, you can't beat it. I had the HPA-2, and although it wasn't the best sound quality, it was decent enough. Heck I thought it was good before I upgraded to the DT770 Pro. The 770 simply could not match the directional abilities of the HPA-2. No contest: the HPA-2 absolutely slaughtered the 770 in imaging. Muti-driver sets are usually cheap, $80-200 range. The HPA-2 is out of production now, but there are still good choices.
 
Sorry if it seemed I was derailing the thread. I was mainly telling some audiophiles to knock off with their BS concerning getting a DAC and forgetting the sound card. 
 
One last thing about multi-driver headphones, they have USB power and 4 jacks. You will not need an amp or DAC, simply plug the USB in and then the center, L/R, sub-woofer, and mic into their respective ports. 
 
Cheers
 
P.S. Also getting a mid-fi setup in a week or two and should be able to give my opinions on that vs the HPA-2.

 

[343 Grenadier]

 Sorry - only have experience with a Xonar, and my current X-Fi Titanium.

 
Shame. Still, there may be others who can give their assessments.
 

Mine would be overall.  Competitiveness (accurate imaging) + comfort + immersion.  
A lot of people swear by AKG's K701/K702/Q701 but I personally found them too L/C/R - whereas AKG's K612 Pro has much better all around imaging.  I'd personally put the AKG K612 Pro above the AD700 - but it's been a long time since I owned the AD700 - and I've never had the two side by side.  MLE rates both the AD700 and Q701 higher.  Again comes down to opinion and preference.  If you're just looking for cheap with good gaming performance, then the AD700 (or AD900) are both hard to beat.  If you want something for both gaming and music - then you'd need to be looking up the scale a bit.
 
I wanted both - so it's led me to the T1.

 
Still useful info. I'll keep this in mind when comparing the AKGs to the Beyers and Audio Technicas and whatever else springs up from the depths of audiophile space. Most people I help are NOT just in it for the gaming. It's usually the other way around, so a well-balanced pair that works wonders in games anyway is useful. Buuuut I'm still keeping my eyes on the ones with the best competitive traits since that's not everybody.
 
Quote:

At this point I'll butt out - as you're looking for something purely competitive.  If you have questions, and seek knowledge - the best place to go is MLE's thread.

 

Thanks anyway; you've been a big help.

 

[Music Alchemist]

  Well, derp on me, then. Judging by the name, those headphones, when properly amped, probably turn your head into a Tesla coil. But hey, I can hear one degree more accurately before I die, so it's all good.

 
Here is a link about how electrostatic headphones work.
 
By the way, the virtual surround sound software I want is "only" $149 + $25 for each additional speaker preset. Using it in conjunction with the heavy physical processor should be interesting.

 

[343 Grenadier]

Ultimately, a physical chip is going to provide more performance than a program (especially a free one). The sound card will take a small load off your CPU and is going to give you better positioning. You can have your own opinion on the worth of a sound card, but read reviews by actual owners and you will see there is definitely an improvement, so you decide if its worth the cost: money and adding another component into your PC. For me, I think it will be. I am going to get one (Sound Blaster Z), and see how I like it (most likely will).  
Really, you will have to try the different brands for yourself as there really is no universal opinion. Also look at the DSP ship since that is you main concern. A $80 model may have the same chip as a $200 model. The $200 model may be focusing more on its DAC.

 
Call me curious, but in terms of sound quality, would it be better to go with a Z using SPDIF out into a good DAC/amp or just roll out the ZxR with its Essence STX-level specs for 180 or so? As I understand it, they're all using Sound Core3D DSPs, although I'm not sure if they come in different models for different price ranges or not. Will have to do some digging there.
 

 As far as improving the surround, with no concern on audio quality, get a multi-driver headphone! Really, you can't beat it. I had the HPA-2, and although it wasn't the best sound quality, it was decent enough. Heck I thought it was good before I upgraded to the DT770 Pro. The 770 simply could not match the directional abilities of the HPA-2. No contest: the HPA-2 absolutely slaughtered the 770 in imaging. Muti-driver sets are usually cheap, $80-200 range. The HPA-2 is out of production now, but there are still good choices.

 

 P.S. Also getting a mid-fi setup in a week or two and should be able to give my opinions on that vs the HPA-2.

 
Heh, this should be interesting. I've heard the AD700s actually even beat most if not all true 5.1 arrangements because of their insane soundstage. Wonder if it's true? I'd like to see them put up against the best surround headsets there are and used by multiple people. Razer Tiamat 7.1 vs. Psyko Carbon 5.1 vs. Audio Technica ATH-AD700s, anyone?
 

 Sorry if it seemed I was derailing the thread. I was mainly telling some audiophiles to knock off with their BS concerning getting a DAC and forgetting the sound card.

 
It's fine. Most of the others seemed to be in agreement with you regarding sound cards and what they bring to the table anyway.
 

 One last thing about multi-driver headphones, they have USB power and 4 jacks. You will not need an amp or DAC, simply plug the USB in and then the center, L/R, sub-woofer, and mic into their respective ports.   
Cheers

 
Thanks. I figured they were designed to be used with the crappiest sources anyway. Although some actually use 3.5mm jacks instead. The 7H did, and so does the vaunted Tiamat 7.1. What I wouldn't do for that comparison I mentioned earlier...
 
Anyway, thanks, man.

 

[343 Grenadier]

 Here is a link about how electrostatic headphones work.

 
Ah, so they won't turn my head into a Tesla coil, they'll just burn my house down because I'll cheap out on the power supply! That gives me more time to hear enemies to frag in Battlefield of Duty: Medal of ArmA!
 
In all seriousness, they sound like a bucketload of fun to try out, games or not. So naturally, their pricetags make Bill Gates's wallet cry. Any volunteers? No, crickets, they won't fit your ears.
 

 By the way, the virtual surround sound software I want is "only" $149 + $25 for each additional speaker preset. Using it in conjunction with the heavy physical processor should be interesting.

 
Seeing as to how the ZxR runs about 180ish, if the software's indisputably better, it may even be worth it along with a DAC over an internal. Do keep us posted; this sounds interesting. So much, in fact, that I'd hate to be burned alive and/or electrocuted from the head down -in that order- before your results come in.

 

[Music Alchemist]

  I've heard the AD700s actually even beat most if not all true 5.1 arrangements because of their insane soundstage. Wonder if it's true?

 
Before I took a moment to remember that 5.1 headphones exist, I thought this was implying that a headphone is supposed to compete with an actual surround sound speaker system. XD

 

[cmander10]

Don't know about the first 2, but when the HPA-2 was compared to the AD700s, the HPA-2 had the better imaging. 

 

[Brooko]

 
Seeing as to how the ZxR runs about 180ish, if the software's indisputably better, it may even be worth it along with a DAC over an internal. Do keep us posted; this sounds interesting. So much, in fact, that I'd hate to be burned alive and/or electrocuted from the head down -in that order- before your results come in.

 
Pretty sure M-A is talking about "Out Of Your Head" software - threads/links:
http://www.head-fi.org/t/689299/out-of-your-head-new-virtual-surround-simulator
https://fongaudio.com/out-of-your-head-software/
 
At this stage no good for gaming - due to latency.
 
I own it.  It's brilliant for music.

 

[Music Alchemist]

  Ah, so they won't turn my head into a Tesla coil, they'll just burn my house down because I'll cheap out on the power supply! That gives me more time to hear enemies to frag in Battlefield of Duty: Medal of ArmA!
 
In all seriousness, they sound like a bucketload of fun to try out, games or not. So naturally, their pricetags make Bill Gates's wallet cry. Any volunteers? No, crickets, they won't fit your ears.
 
Seeing as to how the ZxR runs about 180ish, if the software's indisputably better, it may even be worth it along with a DAC over an internal. Do keep us posted; this sounds interesting. So much, in fact, that I'd hate to be burned alive and/or electrocuted from the head down -in that order- before your results come in.

 
I enjoy your sense of humor. There's no real danger with electrostatic headphone systems as long as you don't open up the amp or be foolish with the tubes.
 
Also, only some of them cost thousands of dollars. Many models are only a few hundred, and I know a few people who actually prefer the cheaper ones!
 
Hmm... First, I'm upgrading my portable setup (for about $800)...then, I'm upgrading to a worthy full-size system in the five figure range, at which point I will add the surround sound stuff to the equation. Again, I don't care too much about audio quality for gaming, but if I find anything relevant, I'll try to remember to keep you posted.

 

[Music Alchemist]

  Pretty sure M-A is talking about "Out Of Your Head" software - threads/links:
http://www.head-fi.org/t/689299/out-of-your-head-new-virtual-surround-simulator
https://fongaudio.com/out-of-your-head-software/
 
At this stage no good for gaming - due to latency.
 
I own it.  It's brilliant for music.

 
Yep, that's the one! I didn't want to sound like I was endorsing it, so didn't link to it.
 
What's this about latency?
 
Also, what do you think about using the software together with the Smyth Realiser A8?

 

[Brooko]

   
Yep, that's the one! I didn't want to sound like I was endorsing it, so didn't link to it.
 
What's this about latency?
 
Also, what do you think about using the software together with the Smyth Realiser A8?

 
Quite a big lag due to the processing.  It's fine with music, as you're not relying on visual queues.  For movies, I just use VLC, and you can realign the video with the audio using Tools > Track Synchronisation. And it is incredibly immersive with movies - thoroughly recommend it.  But the latency means that if you were gaming, actual sounds would never match up with the actions creating the sounds.  For example, someone would be on top of you before you actually heard their footsteps.  Apparently Darin may work on something with low latency for gaming some time in the future.
 
Not sure why you would use the software as well as the SR A8 - both would be doing the same thing.  I'd think it would be more an either / or.

 

[Music Alchemist]

  Quite a big lag due to the processing.  It's fine with music, as you're not relying on visual queues.  For movies, I just use VLC, and you can realign the video with the audio using Tools > Track Synchronisation. And it is incredibly immersive with movies - thoroughly recommend it.  But the latency means that if you were gaming, actual sounds would never match up with the actions creating the sounds.  For example, someone would be on top of you before you actually heard their footsteps.  Apparently Darin may work on something with low latency for gaming some time in the future.
 
Not sure why you would use the software as well as the SR A8 - both would be doing the same thing.  I'd think it would be more an either / or.

 
I actually use VLC for videos too. Sometimes with other players, the video and audio annoyingly get out of sync.
 
But the A8 surely must be better! I just thought the software would further enhance the experience.

 

[ToddTheMetalGod]

In my opinion, sound cards are a fine option as a DAC below $200. The ASUS Xonar STX, Creative Sound Blaster Z, and Creative Titanium HD are all great options. I prefer external DACs because there are many more choices of products, some a bit better in function and sound quality than the similarly priced sound cards.

As others have expressed, I too don't feel the need for virtual surround. Any shooter game is going to have 3-dimensional sound anyway, with depth, height, and width. In my opinion, virtual surround is only good for headphones with poor spatial capability. With a pair of headphones such as the AKG Q701 you don't need a DSP to artificially widen the sound and exaggerate depth.

Again, just my thoughts. Sound cards are a good option for gamers, but anyone considering a sound card should also be aware there is free software capable of the same functions as the drivers.

 

[Brooko]

In my opinion, sound cards are a fine option as a DAC below $200. The ASUS Xonar STX, Creative Sound Blaster Z, and Creative Titanium HD are all great options. I prefer external DACs because there are many more choices of products, some a bit better in function and sound quality than the similarly priced sound cards.

As others have expressed, I too don't feel the need for virtual surround. Any shooter game is going to have 3-dimensional sound anyway, with depth, height, and width. In my opinion, virtual surround is only good for headphones with poor spatial capability. With a pair of headphones such as the AKG Q701 you don't need a DSP to artificially widen the sound and exaggerate depth.

Again, just my thoughts. Sound cards are a good option for gamers, but anyone considering a sound card should also be aware there is free software capable of the same functions as the drivers.

I take it from your comment that you haven't actually compared both? Just my opinion - but the difference with a reasonable sound card (for gaming) is definitely worth it.

 

[343 Grenadier]

 Don't know about the first 2, but when the HPA-2 was compared to the AD700s, the HPA-2 had the better imaging. 

 
Yeah, the AD700s are soundstage monsters, but I recall hearing that the DT 880s have better imaging. Probably the AKG K701s/702s have better imaging, too, given the similarities. I'm not too well-versed in how true surround headsets stack up against stereos in practice as opposed to theory, but there's always this if you want proof stereo's good ENOUGH: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PKdDA_jhgX8
 

Pretty sure M-A is talking about "Out Of Your Head" software - threads/links:
http://www.head-fi.org/t/689299/out-of-your-head-new-virtual-surround-simulator
https://fongaudio.com/out-of-your-head-software/
 
At this stage no good for gaming - due to latency.
 
I own it.  It's brilliant for music.

 

 Quite a big lag due to the processing.  It's fine with music, as you're not relying on visual queues.  For movies, I just use VLC, and you can realign the video with the audio using Tools > Track Synchronisation. And it is incredibly immersive with movies - thoroughly recommend it.  But the latency means that if you were gaming, actual sounds would never match up with the actions creating the sounds.  For example, someone would be on top of you before you actually heard their footsteps.  Apparently Darin may work on something with low latency for gaming some time in the future.

 
Ah. Disappointing. Hopefully they'll iron out those latency issues as the software develops. If it's what you guys are makin' it out to be, it could be a game-changer once/if they iron out the latency issues. No pun intended, I swear.
 

 I enjoy your sense of humor. There's no real danger with electrostatic headphone systems as long as you don't open up the amp or be foolish with the tubes.

 
But what if I hear some camping noob with an LMG or shotgun hiding in them? I'll HAVE to follow them in guns blazing! I'll HAVE to! It's a rule!
 

 Also, only some of them cost thousands of dollars. Many models are only a few hundred, and I know a few people who actually prefer the cheaper ones!

 
I hear that amps "color" the sound in various ways. While we've established they're pretty much only for music, I could see amps having some effect on audio positioning under certain circumstances. Perhaps they color the sound in a way that highlights important details?
 

 Hmm... First, I'm upgrading my portable setup (for about $800)...then, I'm upgrading to a worthy full-size system in the five figure range, at which point I will add the surround sound stuff to the equation. Again, I don't care too much about audio quality for gaming, but if I find anything relevant, I'll try to remember to keep you posted.

 
Seeing as to how the cows will come home and make steak dinner, my morning bacon will be flying to me squealing, and the crickets will get their turn at being deep-fried before I'll be able to shell out that much moolah for some decent audio, I'll be waiting with bated breath. Y'know. If I'm not Kentucky-fried Grendy by then or anything. VICTORY OR DEEEEAAAAAATH! ...OR BOOOOOTH!
 

 In my opinion, sound cards are a fine option as a DAC below $200. The ASUS Xonar STX, Creative Sound Blaster Z, and Creative Titanium HD are all great options. I prefer external DACs because there are many more choices of products, some a bit better in function and sound quality than the similarly priced sound cards.

 
Yeah. It's not directly relevant to the topic or anything, but I've heard the premium internal sound cards like, most recently, the STX II and the ZxR are good deals in terms of features and overall sound quality, even if they're far from the best setups you could ask for.
 

As others have expressed, I too don't feel the need for virtual surround. Any shooter game is going to have 3-dimensional sound anyway, with depth, height, and width. In my opinion, virtual surround is only good for headphones with poor spatial capability. With a pair of headphones such as the AKG Q701 you don't need a DSP to artificially widen the sound and exaggerate depth.

Again, just my thoughts. Sound cards are a good option for gamers, but anyone considering a sound card should also be aware there is free software capable of the same functions as the drivers.

 
I don't know, man... I've heard Razer Surround, at least, and like some others here I'm not exactly impressed by it when comparing it to the premium stuff. Do you know any better alternatives? THAT would REALLY help here.
 
As an aside, I'm also curious how the AD700s and K702s stack up with regards to positional. I've heard some complaints about the K70x sets not playing nice with what's in front of you, kinda like how they say DT 880s don't play nice with the stuff behind. Some of the new research I've been conducting this past day suggests AKG K70xes, DT 880s, and AD700s are good options for gamers. I've also heard the HD 650 and Q701/702 are pretty good options, too. Maybe better under the right circumstances. (Properly amped HD 650.) Oh, and you were right, MA. I looked over that guide again. If nobody else, at least Audioholic thinks HD800s are pretty good for gaming, just not the best. He ranks them higher than AD700s but behind DT 880 Pros.