Portable FM Radio that actually works?
Aug 17, 2006 at 7:05 PM Thread Starter Post #1 of 41

axle

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Hi, all.

The FM on my iAudio U2 is crummy, and the Philips/Nike ACT100 FM is just horrid. I pick up more stations holding a clothes hanger to my head.

Anyone have a good portable radio (mostly to use out running/in the gym)? I like digital, so when one station goes to commercial I can easily switch (without looking). Anyone? Anyone at all? This seems just impossible to find.

Thanks in advance, guys,
Alex
 
Aug 17, 2006 at 8:53 PM Post #2 of 41
Look up Tivoli iPal, iBook, iSongbook.

Probably among the best there is for portable FM radio reception.

Great sound too - but I think you have to be realistic about what can be achieved from small portable speakers.
 
Aug 17, 2006 at 9:06 PM Post #3 of 41
Quote:

mostly to use out running


You'll get an excellent workout if you follow Raid517's advice.
rs1smile.gif
 
Aug 18, 2006 at 12:11 AM Post #4 of 41
Sorry I just read the first few lines of his post. It depends what you call "portable." Tivoli is portable in the sense that small transistor radios are portable.

But at 2 pounds average weight, they may not be quite so good for running.

But for working out in the gym and listening to your MP3 player through an iTrip or a Tunecast II, they are still a good choice.

Having said which they are not entirely suited to my own needs as I need something that is possibly a little louder. But for a small office radio, or for a workout room if you like listening to the radio, they are very well suited.
 
Aug 18, 2006 at 1:06 AM Post #5 of 41
Consistent FM reception in a moving environment (running/car) has/is a bit of challenge. Automobile reception technology has gotten better and better so that things like "diversity reception" aren't the topic anymore. Home FM radios, tuners, and portable radios unfortunately do not use the FM circuitry of automobile radios (rats!).

Anyway, I like the FM tuner in the iRiver U10 flash player. It has good sensitivity, selectivity (separates stations) and a surprising resistance to overloading and images. It has good, strong volume ouput with my headphones and earplugs. It has good battery life. An FM reception annoyance is a tendency on weaker stations to drop out of stereo and switch to mono when the station could have still been received in stereo.

I assume (though perhaps incorrectly) that the iRiver Clix has nearly the same reception.

Some hints with pocket FM radios:

The headphone/earphone cord is the antenna. As best as can be done let the cord be extended do not wrap it up.

Also, even though exteneded, try not to let the headphone cord flop about randomly-- this will cause reception problems.

Keep out of buildings (!) unless next to a window. Commercial buildings can make a radio deaf and, if full of computers, receive nothing but noise.

Of the AM/FM only digital portable radios I've used, the Sony SRF-M97 isn't too bad but does suffer from FM reception problems -- mostly lots of images in a strong signal environment -- the iRiver U10 is a much better radio in my view.

An excellent, non-pocket, radio is the Degen DE-1103 (or Kaito KA-1103 in the USA). AM, FM, Shorwave, Longwave -- it's an outstaning value.

Paul
 
Aug 18, 2006 at 1:39 AM Post #6 of 41
Look into the Sony sports radio-only gizmo. Hasn't been made in years, but you can't get that kind of reception in the new devices where radio is an afterthought.
 
Aug 18, 2006 at 4:19 AM Post #7 of 41
Quote:

Originally Posted by SiBurning
Look into the Sony sports radio-only gizmo. Hasn't been made in years, but you can't get that kind of reception in the new devices where radio is an afterthought.


Are those the ones with the radio built into the circumaural headphones? I was probably going to suggest those
plainface.gif
 
Aug 18, 2006 at 10:26 PM Post #9 of 41
Anyone know which radio chip those iRivers use? There are about 3 manufacturers for these, Philips, Sanyo, and another that I can't remember but nonetheless had a promising model. The G3 (and, so I guess, the U2) appears to use the then-current Philips chip which is reported to be a bit quirky.

Among (semi-)current models, the Sony SRF-59 and SRF-S84 are quite popular due to good sonics, even though their strong signal handling and selectivity aren't that great (but the same applies to competing models). Other current Sony stuff (M10, M97) appears to use Toshiba chips and not fare too well with regard to overload (the new Sangean has the same problem). I saw something about "new FCC LO radiation requirements" in Toshiba datasheets so it could well be that mixer drive levels were reduced, which usually means noticeably worse overload characteristics. (These simple radios typically only have 2 gangs to begin with, i.e. only one tuned RF circuit, so it's pretty hard to conceal bad intermod characteristics.)

Honestly most of the good stuff is likely to be vintage gear and thus more or less rare. I have just reviewed a Sony SRF-M40W Walkman radio from the late '80s, that one is quite good but unfortunately very hissy. I don't know how good the better Aiwas were (a CR-D10 turned out to be defective and had fairly flimsy build, there seemed to be a permanent bass boost anyway, the CR-D6 always goes for quite a bit and I don't know which of the newer CR-DS5xx models qualified as good), and I still have to pick up a Philips AE6775 (not that cheap), but next on the agenda would be vintage models like Sony SRF-40W and -30W (rare) or some of their competitors (xx-rare) such as the models scattered thoughout the vintage Walkman database.
Hey, you can buy a 1983 Panasonic RF-444 radio ($24 in those days, and runs on 4(!) AAs) brand new in the box here, only 35 bucks (well, that's less than the original price considering inflation...), or what about an RF-10 (1982, $77, now setting you back only $65)? The latter seems quite interesting to me, but at this price one would have to be a collector (or have sufficiently deep pockets) to pick one up. JFTR, my Toshiba RP-20 cost $20 in 1985 and is a hot little radio on FM (on AM it overloads badly at night).
 
Aug 19, 2006 at 5:40 AM Post #10 of 41
Wow, thanks so much for the responses, everyone!

I guess vintage is the best way to go. It's a real mystery why a good portable radio isn't really made anymore... does no one listen to radio these days? I thought technology was advancing.

Thanks again! I'll let you guys know if I find something that's really wiz-bang cool.
 
Aug 19, 2006 at 6:34 AM Post #11 of 41
I consider the Sony SRF-M97 to be a good portable FM/AM walkman.
It is very small and easy to handle.
But the sound quality depends on where you live.
rs1smile.gif
 
Aug 19, 2006 at 10:39 AM Post #12 of 41
Oh, I forgot one currently available (at least in the US) radio that seems to enjoy a good reputation: The Sangean DT-200V. This seems to apply mostly to its AM part though, the FM is supposed to be decent but not that exceptional and build quality doesn't seem to win any awards either.

Quote:

Originally Posted by axle
I guess vintage is the best way to go. It's a real mystery why a good portable radio isn't really made anymore... does no one listen to radio these days? I thought technology was advancing.


Some of those new highly integrated chips seem to be quite good (they do pull some interesting tricks), but if the primary goal is performance rather than minimal space taken up you'll typically resort to 20+ year old technology. (Heck, some of the very best FM tuners ever are 25 to 30 years old.) Pocket radios for the most part seem to be as simple as it gets and frequently are little more than an application circuit for the all-in-one ICs used (e.g. SRF-59 with CXA1129N), and performance comes out accordingly. (You can make a simple circuit that performs rather well but even that requires some effort.)
I guess the problem is that things that make a radio perform better also cost, in terms of money, space and power consumption: Want to have better frontend selectivity? Then an analog radio will require more tuning caps and inductors (+ board space), and a digital will need more varicap diodes and inductors + board space. Those inductors typically are high-Q air coils, not that small by pocket radio standards. Oh, and you have to align all these circuits, too. Want a dedicated frontend? That might cost a couple BJTs or FETs, but most importantly those have some power consumption, and don't think that an FM IF / AM RF/IF chip would necessarily draw less than its all-in-one counterpart. (Chip choices also shrink as you move down the supply voltage ladder from 3 V to 1.5 V.) Want at least two halfway narrow IF filters? Then an IF amp might be helpful, a few more mA. Want a dedicated MPX chip? There goes your board space, and up goes the power consumption. Not using an all-in-one chip typically means an extra power amplifier has to be used, there goes some more board space (and many of those are plagued by hiss to some extent, plus output power may be an issue at 1.5 V). Sufficiently large output coupling or other electrolytic capacitors need some space, too (you'll want at least 220µ per channel for output coupling - yes, codecs and SoCs for MP3 players can run DC coupled these days, but that doesn't mean that this kind of progress would move on into separate amp chips very quickly -, and power buffering will probably amount to about 470µ or at least 220µ depending on supply voltage), and the most reliable and/or best-performing ones typically aren't the smallest. Last but not least, a sensitive AM section will require a ferrite bar of some size (among radios of the same vintage and integration level, those with the largest ferrite bars also have the best sensitivity). Now what do people want? Radios that are small and inexpensive and run eternally with possibly a single AA or AAA cell. High-efficiency DC/DC converter chips that allow getting pretty much any voltage from 1.5 V exist (there goes some more board space), but that only means a single cell will be drained more quickly. The SRF-M40W is a brick that uses two AA cells and for a PLL rig is quite economical at an IIRC 28 mA measured current on FM, which should make for 50+ hours of listening with alkalines but that already means twice the power consumption of an SRF-59. The RP-20 seems to draw about 40...50 mA from its two AAA cells, that's calling for rechargeables.

We have one advantage these days: Rechargeables have become much better. Given that even a more power hungry radio is no more so than a thrifty MP3 player, one could probably pull off something that runs on two (or maybe even three) AAs and draws up to about 50 mA these days (50 hours of playtime still is quite a bit). Now whether people would buy something that would have to be used with a belt clip due to its size is another question - they'd certainly ask why this is as large or larger than your average hardddrive based MP3 player. You also have to be able to sell enough of these to keep the price down - something beyond the 100€/$ mark would not sell very well. But if you put in the same effort as in the very first Walkman radios in the early '80s, you could doubtlessly make one that performs better today - better RF transistors are available now, and ceramic filters are cheap enough that you can easily use two 180s without worrying (OK, a bit of filter matching may not be the worst idea).
I would certainly love to see something with a high-performance 3-gang frontend (the RP-20 is 2-gang but darn good anyway, so one should be able to build a yet better 3-ganger) and two decently matched 180 kHz filters plus perhaps a low-loss 280 kHz one or an IFT. (That would be about on par with an entry level FM tuner, actually somewhat better in the IF section and somewhat worse to on par in the frontend depending on whether you apply US or European standards. Real high end still is a far cry away but that config should be very usable.) All that with a dedicated MPX that gives good stereo separation and has a low stereo threshold (with correct region-dependent deemphasis, a mono/stereo switch would also be included), a good-sounding amp chip that's not too hissy, and all the other goodies required for good sound. (Two headphone jacks would be neat, particularly if only one of them doubled as an antenna input, possibly with a supplied impedance transformer to connect to a dedicated antenna.) I wouldn't mind analog tuning if that gives better frontend Q (air tuning caps seem to fare best in this regard, dunno 'bout the mica stuff), frequency counter ICs and simple LCDs seem to be dirt cheap anyway. Whether an AM part would be included, good question. It would require more than average effort in the IF filter section (e.g. 2 2-pole ceramics + IFT, maybe some amping) and with the AGC to make it worthwile, and one would have to think of a way to include a decently large ferrite bar without the set getting too clunky (it would have to be detachable or rotatable). Question is, who could pull that off? One of the dedicated radio manufacturers I guess - Sangean or Degen perhaps. Sony seems to have no ambitions in that direction.
 
Aug 21, 2006 at 8:02 PM Post #14 of 41
Quote:

Originally Posted by axle
Wow, sgrossklass, "Who could make something like that?"--I'm thinking you! Are you an EE?


Still learning...
wink.gif
While I've had some fun studying (and not always fully understanding - the tricks pulled in FM frontends of the more complex kind still are somewhat of a mystery) receiver concepts and would certainly like to construct nice ones one day, I have no practical experience whatsoever in "forward engineering".
I'd think that for constructing a good receiver you can't just slap something together by formula X, you need multiple experienced RF (and, depending on fidelity requirements, audio) engineers along with the matching development environment (software etc.) and, last but not least, production capabilities. A good concept is one thing, but to get a well-performing result, a little TLC is needed.
An example: While AM was concerned in this case, I've heard very similar receiver concepts perform quite differently - a little less RF sensitivity here, somewhat worse AGC action (or rather too little overall gain) and a noisier IF amp there, plus significantly reduced audio filtering, and you end up with a fairly hissy receiver that ultimately isn't quite playing in the same league when it comes to clear weak signal reception. (If you're interested: ICF-7601 vs. ICF-7600A.) The pretty much legendary Panasonic RF-2200 IMO achieves its excellent AM (MW) sensitivity and weak-signal S/N by using a large ferrite antenna and employing well-thought-out gain distribution with a total of 3 IF-level gain stages.
 

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