[PalJoey]

  More on the "Great Rip 2.0" ---  
 
I see that most music CD's only hold about 200-300mb of data, and flac manages to compress that down a bit, so I'm thinking a 128gb card might actually hold something closer to 400 CD's ! That's so cool and very impressive miniaturization from even 10 years ago.
 
I also put every MP3 I ever bought from Apple onto about 2gb of card.
 
My end goal is to have my entire digital library in full quality on 10-15 cards, with the built in 64gb acting like a 'favorites' list. 

Good idea. How would you choose to split the on-card library? Alphabetically? By Genre?

 

[FFBookman]

  To quote (I think) one of the kid's favorite musical "stars," "haters gotta hate."  
 
Some seems to be about Neil Young personally, and some seems to be about his claims of musical quality, and some is just people wanting to tear something down.  Oh, and some is because those people don't believe (science!!!) that a hi-res player needs to exist or that there is any benefit to hi-res music.  We should all be happy using our cell phones and mp3s.
 
As you've seen, it does get to be a bit much.  Just a simple Google search gives you all kinds of nasties, and if you read the comments at the bottom of the review (a very good one) you linked to you can see a whole lot more. 
 
As I keep pointing out, "do you have one?  Then talk to us about what it sounds like."
 
But opinions are like, well, you know.  Everyone has one and everyone thinks theirs doesn't stink.  That's the joy of the interweb.
 
I love the sound of my Pono.  Are there small issues?  Sure.  Does everything we purchase have small problems?  Sure.  
 
I don't see one in your sig, but should you get one I think you will be pleasantly surprised.  It's got winning sound quality, which is what matters, right?
 
Oh, and mine looks like a Toblerone candy bar.  What could be better?

People are crazy.
 
I try to empathize but I just don't get it.
 
Can you imagine hating someone you've never met so much that you even hate any and all products and services they are a part of?
 
Rush Limbaugh loves Macs. I love Macs. I hate Rush Limbaugh. I still love Macs. Life goes on.
 
People I hate drive my car brand. They watch my favorite teams. They shop at my stores and they watch my shows.
 
I think people that rant negative on the internet are psycho. They either are certified or are nearing exposure as maniac. Some are so highly medicated that they can argue vehemently without a clue as to what they are actually talking about.  Ah the internet. I try to stick to forums and avoid facebook and most social media, but there's jackasses everywhere.
 
Plus, honestly, music audio quality is both completely personal and complex. How dare you insinuate that I am not rocking! We are all easily defensive because we are bothering to type about it all, we don't to be told we are wrong about our own passion.
 
That said, I have been arguing audio online for sometime now. The tell is they won't talk about how it sounds. They won't talk about what it actually does. They won't talk about sound at all because they are clueless. If it's about sound, let's talk sound. If it's politics or gossip, I'll engage but understand that it's a side-show.
 
In my long PonoPlayer review I took until the 7th page to say how it sounds, so I'm guilty too.  I'm trying to shorten all of my reviews in person to "listen to this".

 

[PalJoey]

  The tell is they won't talk about how it sounds. They won't talk about what it actually does. They won't talk about sound at all because they are clueless. 

A lot of the gadget-oriented hacks/bloggers actively play up their disdain for how an audio device sounds, as that's 'audiophoolishness', 'snobbishness' and 'elitist', in their eyes. 
 
Their main approach is to narrow their article down to concentrating on everything that the device being reviewed doesn't do as well as the closest comparable iGadget.

 

[FFBookman]

  Good idea. How would you choose to split the on-card library? Alphabetically? By Genre?

Oh My PalJoey - I have been 'stressing' over this modern problem for weeks now.
 
This could be the last digital music library I ever build. The master. I knew CD was locked into those stupid discs and MP3 was temporary. This one feels permanent. 
 
I demand a lot from my music library --  I am a DJ (clubs and radio). I do production. I write my own music and produce other acts. I own well over 1k CD's and like most of them. I listen to lots of genres and lots of eras, literally back to the beginning of recorded music. I will continue to build out my collection with 24bit files. I want it all to be nearly invisible and easy to use, since I don't like to be music snobby
 
I also have about 2k vinyl records that don't apply here, they will never be digital. If Rip 2.0 goes well maybe I'll combine the vinyl database with the digital database and have my actual master list, but save that for version 2.5.
 
SO - to your question -- by Genre is definitely out. I don't really do genre's, especially not like most people.
 
Alphabetically is the most obvious, just leave space on each card for growth, and you can always reshuffle and put new labels on the little card.
 
Friends have suggested some other interesting concepts:  by year, by album name, by playlist, by mood. Each opens up possibilities and has pros and cons. 
 
I'm leaning towards a weird one -- I call it "playlist extended". It requires building a playlist of 40ish songs and then including the entire catalog of the artists in the playlist on that card. Then you continue to make these playlists for new cards with the artists that haven't been used yet. End result is 40 or so artists entire catalog per card.
 
I am thinking it will force me to group the artists on the card more musically than the other methods. I would just have to remember who's on what card. My JRiver software will keep the 64gb internal on the PP synced with my favorites using playlists and whatnot.

 

[FFBookman]

  A lot of the gadget-oriented hacks/bloggers actively play up their disdain for how an audio device sounds, as that's 'audiophoolishness', 'snobbishness' and 'elitist', in their eyes. 
 
Their main approach is to narrow their article down to concentrating on everything that the device being reviewed doesn't do as well as the closest comparable iGadget.

It's very strange how these normally intelligent people miss the obvious with audio devices. This should be their review:
 
 
How. Does. It. Sound.  Sit and listen. Live with it a few days. Crank it. Let it roll for a half hour. 
 
Do you feel $x better than what you had?  Then suggest it as a buy. Think you maybe want your money back? Suggest it as a dud. 
 
Some of the gadget sites did a decent job, and heard the quality, but their comments sections shouted "snake oil audiophool i think an MP3 is the same as the master!" idiots.  I am on a few of them swatting flies.  
 
Most end up linking back to Monty at xiph.org. How ironic the people that built flac are the same ones trying to kill it. Neil Young is the best thing to ever happen to flac.
 
Monty himself pops up in threads and responds to me with slams. I started it, I'm not crying, I'm just saying the guy still believes there is nothing important beyond 16/44 with PCM encoding, and he should know better. 
 
If you've heard 24bit audio played on a proper system and you come away saying "people don't need to hear this", you are anti-music in my book.

 

[olddude]

Nice, FFBookman
 
My take on the internet is that people say anything because they feel safe.  It's not actually interpersonal, they aren't seeing the effect of their words on someone via body language, facial expression, social cues, etc.  It reminds me of the ending of Jay And Bob's Adventure movie, where they spent all of their money going from poster's house to poster's house, beating them up for what they said about Jay and Bob on the internet.  If that was how it was, people would be a lot more circumspect.
 
Your point about "sound" was well made.  Sound is both a science AND an art.  You can quantify science but you can't quantify art.  So when someone starts yammering about how mp3 on their smartphone is every bit as good as 24/192 on my Pono, they may be talking science but they surely aren't talking art.  When they say THEY can't hear any difference, all I think is that THEY can't hear a difference.  And yet they are telling me that I can't hear a difference as well.  Making such statements is not nice.  It reminds me of the folks coming to my front door and asking me to reconsider my spiritual beliefs and to follow theirs because, in their minds, their beliefs are better.  To who?  To them.  Not to me.  
I just find them rude.
 
We all have different listening enjoyments.  I can certainly appreciate the fact that someone likes listening to their music on an iPhone 6 using mp3. No problem, knock yourself out, it's nothing to me, have a good time.  And I HAVE an iPhone 6.  But when someone says to me, why on earth are you wasting your money on your silly hi-end equipment with your hi-res files when it's a proven fact that all you need is that iPhone 6 and mp3 files?  Well, that's just rude.  Have they tried, in this case, a Pono?  
 
None have so far.  Some of the people posting here don't like/appreciate/see the reason for ANYTHING above a smartphone, be it a Fiio X5 or an iBasso DX90 or a Pono or an AK240.  Just use a smartphone and be happy like us.  
 
I don't try to change them, why do they feel the need to convince me to be like them?  Do they want to convert me from my heathen ways, make me a good little believer like them?  If I'm like them then they will like me?  If I'm like them then I've seen the light?  Are they zealots, going "door-to-door" trying to convince the savages to become civilized?
 
So I've started looking at their sigs to see what they use.  And sometimes they use really expensive equipment in their home systems, with really expensive cables, but when it comes to portable audio, ehh, use a smartphone.
 
I'm married to someone with a different belief system from mine.  We don't spend time trying to convince each other of the "rightness" of our personal beliefs.  What good would that do?  It would likely lead to issues and disharmony.  No, instead, we embrace the fact that we have different beliefs and accept each other for who we are as people.  
 
Why don't folks here try that, instead of getting into the whole "mine is better than yours, you don't know what you are talking about" dialog?  Try it, you might like it.

 

[FFBookman]

  My yellow one seems to be rubberized.  I can't speak to the others.
 
Hi-res is hi-res wherever you listen to it.  Why downscale fidelity?  Unless you are a non-believer in hi-res, in which case any discussion of it leads to the declaration "use mp3?"  I wouldn't downscale any part of my audio chain, don't see the point.  I wouldn't take lesser food on a plane because of the smell and heat.  I wouldn't take a lesser book because of the poor lighting and vibration and noise.   Better is better.  Wherever you take it.   

Yep. Read backwards.
 
Better is better, wherever you take it.  That's how audio works. It's always the chain, you are discussing "the room" of an airplane outside of speakers on your ears. Last in the chain.
 
That means that almost all of the chain is going directly into your inner ear. Yes there's plane noise too, and yes it's intense.
 
I have flown with my PP once and the only issue might be overall volume. I don't have noise canceling cans, but if yours require a lot of power to drive I could image the PP being unable to completely drown out outside noise.
 
But quality is still quality. People refuse to believe this and this is why compression and anti-HD sentiment exists. 
 
Welcome to 2015 - A DAP and/or MicroSD can literally hold hundreds if not thousands of albums at 24/192 so there is no longer any need for compression. If you are on a very limited budget, using 10 year old digital tech, you still need it. If you buy in now, with a Fiio or PP, you don't need compression anymore. 
 
It's liberating to just enjoy the highest quality you own wherever you go.  It's actually delivering on the promise of the iPod 14 years ago. 

 

[Koukol]

I think they made themselves a big target with the promotional video they made.

 

[FFBookman]

  I think they made themselves a big target with the promotional video they made.

Could be, who knows. It was very trendy and "soulful", but I mean, look at Pono's business model!  Basically to make the mainstream care about sound quality again, to try to redo the iPod 15 years later, using a completely DRM-free open flac format.  No wonder the money men have stayed away and the labels are hedging their bets. It's still PCM, it's still copyable, and now it's the masters!
 
The more I rip CD's and hear how amazing they sound on the PP, the more I think they should have marketed it that way. Let people discover above 16/44 on their own, since everything sounds better on the PP.  My CD's have never ever sounded this good, on anything, anywhere. The fact that 24bit remasters sound that much better makes its an emotional experience if you can afford any space in your budget for buying music.

 

[FFBookman]

BTW - I have a concept of what the labels are up to.  This could be the next big fight in the music industry.
 
They want DRM (security against bootlegging). They have wanted it since the introduction of PCM CD in 1981. Bootleg CD's were a minor problem compared to internet-bred digital file bootlegging.
 
Let's go back 20 years to set this up:
 
They reacted with DRM on top of PCM in the late 90's. It failed because it was after the encoding and required new layers of encode/decode done in software that was buggy enough to cause major pain to their legal consumers, and was abandoned as a tech support nightmare.
 
Neil Young comes along around 2006 and says we are gonna build the next iPod and it's going to play the highest quality files we have.
 
He initially partners with Meridian in the UK and they talk about a new encoding method, where they go back to the analog masters and don't make 24/192 PCM files, but make this new encoding. Not sure if the labels are involved at this point, but this new encoding Meridian is developing involves both DRM and a lossy compression process, and of course, it's unknown if it's actually higher sound quality than 24/192 PCM. It definitely uses less storage space than PCM which is critical for streaming. 
 
Neil and his little Pono brain trust seem to balk at this for unspecified reasons (my guess is both the DRM and the lack of backwards compatibility with a new encoding - aka all existing players won't play these new files was enough to scare them off). They decide to build the best open FLAC hippy dap they can. Neil wants the perfect iPod, he's gonna get it.
 
They set up a little challenge to the various builders out there to build the best FLAC playback chain, upto 24/192 at least. Neil says Ayre's sounded better, and the way I heard him explain it I believe him. Every couple of minutes playing my PP I know what he means. This is a seriously good little playback device. Like taking an A Room around in your pocket. Amazing.
 
 
SO that brings us to now --- what of this new encoding that Neil abandoned?   Are you still with me?
 
Meridian have branded it MQA (Master Quality Assurance) and I think the labels will eventually put their full force behind it because of the DRM. 
 
I think the major play is to get Apple/Beats to support it. The entire hardware line gets MQA DAC's so every new Apple device or headphone can play legal MQAs. The apple marketing genius makes it the new cool format, leaving flac/cd/mp3 behind.
 
Beats will put the DAC and amp right in the headphone so you can stream data with no device, actual hi-fi wireless headphones.
 
And with the labels backing, you see real content in MQA, new box sets, new content, thing not yet digitized, major artists.  PCM never dies, but is instant archive format.
 
MQA could be their attempt to push back on the bootleggers, since you need a signed MQA Decoder in the DAC that also checks hashes on the files playing, making it much more complicated to distribute non-paid-for digital files. 
 
1 other thing -- MQA lives inside of existing file formats, just like PCM does. That is to say it can be wrapped up in a FLAC or a WAV, or even an MP3 I think. This could confuse the consumer but branding is pretty amazing, so we'll see.
 
Clarity will require us to specify the encoding, not just the file format. There will be PCM-FLAC and MQA-FLAC and their resolution numbers might not match. Meridian is claiming 16/44 MQA ~ 24/192 PCM in the sound quality department, letting them stream higher quality than PCM at the same bitrate.
 
 
 
There's been a few hints of this leaking out.  About 2 years ago someone published a rumor that U2 was helping Apple develop a new music format for the iTunes store. Around that time the "mastered for iTunes" program took effect, with much content delivered to apple as 24bit PCM, with apple doing the encode to 256k mp3 or 16/44 lossless. They don't sell the 24 bit PCM, but they do stock it and probably has the legalese to convert it to a new format.
 
Apple likes to get most of the parts together in secret then turn it all on. Make a splash, not just an announcement of an idea.  If they flip their store to MQA "hi-def" files, put the MQA DAC in all Beats headphones, iDevices, and computers, and market the hell out of exclusive content with full label support, music lovers will of course sign up.   Why leave the Apple universe if they actually offer a compelling sounding experience? Android will follow Apple's lead, at least in licensing the format.
 
People will hate on Neil/Pono at that moment, but my PP will still play PCM (and DSD) for the rest of time, so I won't be that mad. I don't know anyone who has heard MQA yet, so unless it delivers major improvement at the encoding stage (many are skeptical) it will all be for nothing. No one will obsolete all digital players for a format that doesn't convince people more than the current 24bit argument does.
 
I remain interested because Meridian is claiming their sound quality improvement comes from focusing the encoder's smarts on spatial timing and transients of a stereo signal, much more than PCM did. I've read some intriguing things beyond the scope of this post that says they might be onto something.

 

[xiphmont]

 Monty himself pops up in threads and responds to me with slams.

 
May I ask for an example of such a 'slam'?  Responding with facts and evidence isn't a slam, and I keep things strictly non-personal.
 
I'm not trying to kill Pono.  I'm responding to some of the demonstrably incorrect assertions in its marketing, things that anyone with a modest home lab can show, empirically, aren't true.  And I'm doing that despite the fact that it's using formats my own organization advocates.  That should say something.
 
There's plenty of room for fun and subjectivism in hi-fi without resorting to blatant falsehoods in the guise of marketing that borders on mysticism.

 

[FFBookman]

   
May I ask for an example of such a 'slam'?  Responding with facts and evidence isn't a slam, and I keep things strictly non-personal.
 
I'm not trying to kill Pono.  I'm responding to some of the demonstrably incorrect assertions in its marketing, things that anyone with a modest home lab can show, empirically, aren't true.  And I'm doing that despite the fact that it's using formats my own organization advocates.  That should say something.
 
There's plenty of room for fun and subjectivism in hi-fi without resorting to blatant falsehoods in the guise of marketing that borders on mysticism.

Hey Monty! You must get a bat signal when I type your name somewhere.
 
Why is it your job to debunk Pono's marketing?  It's just marketing. Do you debunk other company's marketing also? What about Sony, Fiio, the other makers? 
 
Do you know that Apple takes deliveries at 24bit, and has for years?  They downsample to 16/44 alac and then 256k mp3. They stock the 24bit master but don't sell it. Yet.
 
I don't think I'm a part of "hi-fi", I just listen to music and make music like millions of others. I don't have any money for expensive anything. Gotta spend that on the family and the bills.
 
 
OK Monty, let's try to turn this positive. Have you heard MQA yet?  Thoughts on a new encoding format to take on PCM?  I haven't heard it but my mentors are skeptical.

 

[Koukol]

 

  I think they made themselves a big target with the promotional video they made.

Could be, who knows. It was very trendy and "soulful", but I mean, look at Pono's business model!  Basically to make the mainstream care about sound quality again, to try to redo the iPod 15 years later, using a completely DRM-free open flac format.  No wonder the money men have stayed away and the labels are hedging their bets. It's still PCM, it's still copyable, and now it's the masters!
 
The more I rip CD's and hear how amazing they sound on the PP, the more I think they should have marketed it that way. Let people discover above 16/44 on their own, since everything sounds better on the PP.  My CD's have never ever sounded this good, on anything, anywhere. The fact that 24bit remasters sound that much better makes its an emotional experience if you can afford any space in your budget for buying music.

I'm also rediscovering my CD collection with the Pono.
24 bit doesn't guarantee a better sound

 

[FFBookman]

 
I'm also rediscovering my CD collection with the Pono.
24 bit doesn't guarantee a better sound

Of course 24 bit doesn't guarantee better sound.
 
It is but a format. It can only be as good as the content contained in it.
 
I'd say the signal chain of the Pono is responsible for 75% of the improvement. Whatever it plays it plays very well.  I haven't found many arguments about that.
 
 
Whether getting 24bit files is "worth it" for that last 25%, I say it's up to you, case by case.
 
If you own the CD and it's not damaged, mise well rip it. 
 
If it's a style of music that wasn't really known for good production, they prob won't have 24bit anyway, you can find the used CD for a few bucks.
 
Most of it comes down to cost and how much you want to own. I got 31 Sam Cooke songs @ 24/44 for $20. That's cheaper than Apple's mp3 or any CD. But I also see stores still charging $18 for 16/44 album, that's a little high in my opinion.

 

[xiphmont]

 
Hey Monty! You must get a bat signal when I type your name somewhere.
 
Why is it your job to debunk Pono's marketing?  It's just marketing. Do you debunk other company's marketing also? What about Sony, Fiio, the other makers? 
 
Do you know that Apple takes deliveries at 24bit, and has for years?  They downsample to 16/44 alac and then 256k mp3. They stock the 24bit master but don't sell it. Yet.
 
I don't think I'm a part of "hi-fi", I just listen to music and make music like millions of others. I don't have any money for expensive anything. Gotta spend that on the family and the bills.
 
 
OK Monty, let's try to turn this positive. Have you heard MQA yet?  Thoughts on a new encoding format to take on PCM?  I haven't heard it but my mentors are skeptical.

 
I read Head-Fi, especially as I'm shopping right now   I don't post that much, as I don't own and haven't heard or tested most of the equipment people are discussing (I'm mostly into vintage cans).  But then, I don't even post much over at HA.
 
I have a bug for debunking silly claims in general mainly because I'm an audio professional.  Silly claims that have become conventional wisdom regularly come back to bite and complicate my job.  And yes, I've been critical of Sony's recent marketing.  I hadn't noticed anything from FiiO recently that warranted attention but then, I don't go out looking for these things.  (I have a FiiO.  It sounds good.  I'd like to hear and test a Pono, but not enough to go buy one.  A good DAC/amp is a good DAC/amp, and I have a few already.)
 
Not heard MQA, and haven't seen many hard details about it, so I can't comment.  PCM is dominant mainly because it's so convenient.  It's not the only sensible way to represent sound, it's just by far the easiest to manipulate.