Poll: Were the moon landings fake?
Jul 18, 2009 at 6:11 PM Post #316 of 468
Quote:

Originally Posted by jp11801 /img/forum/go_quote.gif
Seriously? you make this statement after all the leaks and embarrassing stuff that has come out over the past 100 years regarding the US govt? Only when there is a conspiracy of one can you keep it a secret as soon as there is more than one you are doomed to discovery.


"Conspiracy" means literally "breathing together," so it takes two. There is no such thing as a "conspiracy of one."
 
Jul 18, 2009 at 6:13 PM Post #317 of 468
Quote:

Originally Posted by Gatto /img/forum/go_quote.gif
what I'm saying is I don't know if we really could. I've considering doing some research about the whole thing, guess now is a good time to get started. The only thing I'm concerned about is where to find neutral information. Not things that are written from the perspective of someone who wants everybody or nobody to believe this really happened. I don't want pages debunking the stuff I already saw about debunking the landing.


The link I posted above has scientific analysis of each and every objection presented by the conspiracy theorists. Follow the science.

The whole conspiracy theory falls apart under it's own weight. There are too many people/agencies/other countries involved to pull off something like this. There are mountains of scientific data, yet the doubters latch on to a few things they don't understand and try to claim the whole thing never happened. Also, many of the theories put forth are far more complex than just going to the moon.

Sorry if I seemed harsh in my post above, but I've just spent the last 1.5 days reading all the hoax theories, and none of them hold up to any sort of scientific scrutiny. I grew up with the space program, and have had a lifelong interest in space and astronomy. I have a good enough background in science and technology (photography also) to know BS when I see it, and the whole "we never went to the moon in 1969" is just that - BS. Most of it is either ignorance of basic physics, or "researchers" not really doing any research, just spouting uninformed opinions.

This is an excellent place to start.

Clavius Moon Base - debunking the moon hoax

You can also read the history of the Apollo program on NASA's web site. I even found the manual for the Lunar Rover.

Also, the LRO program has just photographed all but one of the Apollo landing sites. (Apollo 12 should be imaged in the next month or so) The LRO hasn't yet settled into its final mapping orbit, so these images are not at the highest resolution the LRO is capable of.

NASA - LRO Sees Apollo Landing Sites
 
Jul 18, 2009 at 6:19 PM Post #318 of 468
Quote:

Originally Posted by Gatto /img/forum/go_quote.gif
well the thing about keeping people quiet, government clearances are not something you mess around with, if you leak information you're looking at jail time, that's if you leak low security stuff. I'm sure IF this landing was faked any leak of information was punishable by death. Any leak of tactical information is death worthy so how could something like that be any less.


So why not leave the goodies in a testament or book to be published after their death, it is after all 40 year ago.
 
Jul 18, 2009 at 6:33 PM Post #319 of 468
I must say the idea that "the 1969 landing was a fake, but we did go to the moon later" is a twist on the conspiracy theory I had not heard before this thread. It is a convenient modification of the original hoax claim that can be used to include more recent technology like laser ranging off the mirrors left on the moon, and the revisits by new moon probes sending back high resolution photos showing the HW previously left on the moon.

Of course, that twist adds another layer of extremely complicated hoax engineering that would need to be added to keep the hoax going. Now the later astronauts who *did* go to the moon would either have to be unaware the 1969 landing was fake, or they would have to be willing to live the rest of their lives knowing they really were first, but couldn't talk about it. The engineers who built the later moon shots would also have to be unaware they were the first, and they would not know why their designs had to be different than Apollo 11. Of course, since it takes months (or years in some cases) to build and test flight HW, they would have had to know well prior to the 1969 launch that the later flights needed to have different HW to actually work. I would be interested in exactly what was different about the later missions that allowed them to be possible, while the 1969 mission was not. For example, Ralph Rene claimed the Van Allen belt radiation made it impossible for the astronauts to survive travel to the moon. In order for that to be true, that means we have never been above low-Earth orbit, then or ever.

So, for the "not in 1969, but we did later" to be true, that means that many of the original hoax theories are wrong. The real conspiracy theorists would never accept that!
 
Jul 18, 2009 at 6:40 PM Post #320 of 468
Quote:

Originally Posted by Lazarus Short /img/forum/go_quote.gif
"Conspiracy" means literally "breathing together," so it takes two. There is no such thing as a "conspiracy of one."


yeah no kidding that was my point, conspiracies by there very nature are fallible due to the more than one being involved. Once more than one is involved your chances for secrecy are in the crapper
 
Jul 18, 2009 at 6:41 PM Post #321 of 468
Do you think that they could have put men in orbit around the moon and transmitted taped information? The whole effort was genuine so there would not have to be a conspiracy of such a large group of people. The trip, I don't doubt. That we had the skill to joystick a landing and retrieval of men to the moon in 1969, I still have some sense of doubt. Not saying it did or did not take place but there is plenty of reason to be skeptical.

If we have the capability to go from rocket lobbing bombs to a lunar event in less than 10 years, why do we have so many problems of solvable ability killing so many people today? It was the focus of man's best effort to put two men on the surface of the moon to win a bet.

Well, I bet we can't find a cure for hunger in ten years. I bet we can't find a cure for cancer in ten years. I bet the Cubs can't win a Series in ten years.
biggrin.gif


It is a good topic for debate and I will choose to believe we did go to the moon because I want to. It helped me believe in the impossible so I won't ask for the proof as I hope mankind has the ability to do whatever it seriously wants to do.
 
Jul 18, 2009 at 6:45 PM Post #322 of 468
Quote:

Originally Posted by billybob_jcv /img/forum/go_quote.gif
I must say the idea that "the 1969 landing was a fake, but we did go to the moon later" is a twist on the conspiracy theory I had not heard before this thread. It is a convenient modification of the original hoax claim that can be used to include more recent technology like laser ranging off the mirrors left on the moon, and the revisits by new moon probes sending back high resolution photos showing the HW previously left on the moon.

Of course, that twist adds another layer of extremely complicated hoax engineering that would need to be added to keep the hoax going. Now the later astronauts who *did* go to the moon would either have to be unaware the 1969 landing was fake, or they would have to be willing to live the rest of their lives knowing they really were first, but couldn't talk about it. The engineers who built the later moon shots would also have to be unaware they were the first, and they would not know why their designs had to be different than Apollo 11. Of course, since it takes months (or years in some cases) to build and test flight HW, they would have had to know well prior to the 1969 launch that the later flights needed to have different HW to actually work. I would be interested in exactly what was different about the later missions that allowed them to be possible, while the 1969 mission was not. For example, Ralph Rene claimed the Van Allen belt radiation made it impossible for the astronauts to survive travel to the moon. In order for that to be true, that means we have never been above low-Earth orbit, then or ever.

So, for the "not in 1969, but we did later" to be true, that means that many of the original hoax theories are wrong. The real conspiracy theorists would never accept that!



Ah, but that's the beauty of conspiracy theories. They are extremely adaptable
wink.gif


Here is a quote from Dr. James Van Allen (yes, that one):

Quote:

"The recent Fox TV show, which I saw, is an ingenious and entertaining assemblage of nonsense. The claim that radiation exposure during the Apollo missions would have been fatal to the astronauts is only one example of such nonsense." -- Dr. James Van Allen


 
Jul 18, 2009 at 7:05 PM Post #323 of 468
Quote:

Originally Posted by Happy Camper /img/forum/go_quote.gif
Do you think that they could have put men in orbit around the moon and transmitted taped information? The whole effort was genuine so there would not have to be a conspiracy of such a large group of people. The trip, I don't doubt. That we had the skill to joystick a landing and retrieval of men to the moon in 1969, I still have some sense of doubt. Not saying it did or did not take place but there is plenty of reason to be skeptical.

If we have the capability to go from rocket lobbing bombs to a lunar event in less than 10 years, why do we have so many problems of solvable ability killing so many people today? It was the focus of man's best effort to put two men on the surface of the moon to win a bet.

Well, I bet we can't find a cure for hunger in ten years. I bet we can't find a cure for cancer in ten years. I bet the Cubs can't win a Series in ten years.
biggrin.gif


It is a good topic for debate and I will choose to believe we did go to the moon because I want to. It helped me believe in the impossible so I won't ask for the proof as I hope mankind has the ability to do whatever it seriously wants to do.



Getting the Saturn V into orbit wasn't the easy part. The easiest part of the mission was probably the actual travel to the moon - between the burn to start the trip and the burn to enter moon orbit.

As to the "Why can't we..." - asked and answered earlier in the thread: Money and Commitment. We have had neither since the 70's.

EDIT: Oh, wait - I now see you DID say around the moon, not the Earth. OK - why would landing and taking off from an airless rock with 1/6th the gravity of Earth be the hard part?
 
Jul 18, 2009 at 7:14 PM Post #324 of 468
Quote:

Originally Posted by beerguy0 /img/forum/go_quote.gif
Here is a quote from Dr. James Van Allen (yes, that one):


Oh yeah? What does he know about the Van Allen belt, ppptth. I saw a blog the other day by this 19 year old kid and he has some pretty interesting theories, and there's this old drunk who wrote a book with some potent stuff in it. I'd say the question is still open.

It comes back to what I mentioned earlier about respect for knowledge. Sad.
 
Jul 18, 2009 at 7:16 PM Post #325 of 468
Quote:

Originally Posted by Gatto /img/forum/go_quote.gif
well the thing about keeping people quiet, government clearances are not something you mess around with, if you leak information you're looking at jail time, that's if you leak low security stuff. I'm sure IF this landing was faked any leak of information was punishable by death. Any leak of tactical information is death worthy so how could something like that be any less.


Not necessarily. Look at all the other stuff that has leaked lately. Not to get political, but there have been many revelations of warrantless wiretapping, torture, etc. that have come out. No doubt those things required clearances.

There hasn't been a single prosecution - let alone execution - for any of that. Usually, people just get their clearances revoked.

So, what would be the upside of revealing a moon hoax conspiracy?

Well, I suppose someone who was directly involved would probably rake in over $10 million from talk show appearances and interviews within the first few weeks. Probably another $3-$4 million for a book and then upwards of $100k a pop for speeches and attending conventions, etc.

I figure that if someone worked at it, a $20 million payday would be within reach.

That's pretty fair money. You'd never have to work or worry about anything again.

So, would you rather lose your security clearance or have a lifetime of wealth and freedom?
 
Jul 18, 2009 at 8:04 PM Post #326 of 468
Quote:

Originally Posted by Uncle Erik /img/forum/go_quote.gif
So, would you rather lose your security clearance or have a lifetime of wealth and freedom?


Naive
na⋅ive [nah-eev]
-adjective

having or showing a lack of experience, judgment, or information; credulous: She's so naive she believes everything she reads.
 
Jul 18, 2009 at 8:07 PM Post #327 of 468
Quote:

Originally Posted by Graphicism /img/forum/go_quote.gif
Naive
na⋅ive [nah-eev]
-adjective

having or showing a lack of experience, judgment, or information; credulous: She's so naive she believes everything she reads.



You mean like believing conspiracy theories?
 
Jul 18, 2009 at 8:09 PM Post #328 of 468
I hesitate to post this.

All of the discussion in this thread over whether a large-scale conspiracy can be kept under wraps over time puts me to thinking about another very large-scale conspiracy that I know of. It has existed for hundreds of years, has cost the human race untold lives and wealth, and (note well) has been exposed many times, sometimes by it own. I dare not name it here, as banishment from this forum is the least I can expect. Most people are entirely unaware of it, and merely have a vague feeling that something is not right with the world. How can it be kept so well hidden? Two things:

Damage control - every member of the conspiracy is trained to act as a gatekeeper in his personal sphere.

Deception - hidden in plain sight, so that even if you find it, you won't know it for what it is.

"TWISOLCGYK"

I refuse to discuss this further, so do not PM me, or ask me about the above on this thread. Do your own research. I can not even point out the direction for you to go, though normally I would love to, given a safer subject.
 
Jul 18, 2009 at 8:14 PM Post #330 of 468
Quote:

Originally Posted by Graphicism /img/forum/go_quote.gif
Turn off the TV for a second and tell me; what exactly is a conspiracy theory?


Please stop falling back on your "you're all brainwashed" BS as it neither supports your argument or furthers the debate.
 

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