[chrisco]

Sennheiser 595s
Sony NW-HD1
Little Dot Micro +

I listened with the supplied interconnect and enjoyed everything.

I then bought and listened to the same equipement via an AudioLineOut solid silver mini to mini interconnect and the difference was STAGGERING!!!!!!

It is like I have a far superior amp and headphones, everything and I do mean everything has imporved- bass, mids, highs the flippin works.

Thanks again Ken Yippee!!

 

[TKO]

Head-Fiers,

what I find most interesting about these discussions (before they degenerate into personal attacks, that is) is the lack of any scientific or experimental proofs into the phenomen. Surely, one would think that this would be easily measurable n'est-ce pas?

What science has demonstrated, unequivocally, is that when a person physically sees the source of the sound (e.g. based on blind speaker testing research conducted at the National Research Council of Canada's laboratory by the acclaimed Dr. Floyd Toole) there is a psychological reaction. E.g. in blind-versus-sighted tests. These results were presented to the Audio Engineering Society (in 1994) and the conclusion stated: Quote:

"when listeners knew what they were listening to, the opinions were dictated more by the product identity than by the sound... That an effect of this kind should be observed is not remarkable, nor is it unexpected. What is surprising is that the effect is so strong, and that it applies about equally to experienced and inexperienced listeners."

Google the National Research Council, Dr. Toole etc. and you might find some interesting articles on their experiments into psychoacoustics etc.

The one key difference between speaker testing and headphone "testing" is that the headphone listener is not subjected to reflections and out-of-phase signals as occurs in a normal listening environment.

Perhaps some of you will find this interesting... Perhaps not.

Cheers.

 

[neilvg]

They won't fix a system that is already mismatched to begin with. If you like the sound you are getting, cables can refine it.

You can basically get 'technically perfect' cables for very cheap. Check out Belden for example. What high end cables do, as others have said, is color the sound. This can be good, especially if you value a highly Euphonic system, tailored to suit your tastes.

Also, you need a system that has sufficiently high enough resolution to really "hear" all the differences. I think a lot of people may be trying aftermarket cabling without first getting some things straight. BEFORE anyone should be changing any cables, first become VERY VERY certain of what the particular signature of your equipment is (in a sum total). If you play any CD, generally, you should be able to hear some artifact of what your system 'sounds' like. Even in the most resolving systems. The very lack of signature is also a signature.

In my system, I can hear the difference between burning CD's on certain Media versus others (especially when using different burning modes, like the Yamaha CDR-F1 Mastering Burn (with wider divots) for example).

Also, at some point you have to realize, while some people may just be 'psychologically' upgrading certain high-end cables, others truly do hear a difference. Not everyone has the same level and quality of hearing.

Neil

 

[chrisco]

Quote:

Originally Posted by TKO Head-Fiers, what I find most interesting about these discussions (before they degenerate into personal attacks, that is) is the lack of any scientific or experimental proofs into the phenomen. Surely, one would think that this would be easily measurable n'est-ce pas? What science has demonstrated, unequivocally, is that when a person physically sees the source of the sound (e.g. based on blind speaker testing research conducted at the National Research Council of Canada's laboratory by the acclaimed Dr. Floyd Toole) there is a psychological reaction. E.g. in blind-versus-sighted tests. These results were presented to the Audio Engineering Society (in 1994) and the conclusion stated: Google the National Research Council, Dr. Toole etc. and you might find some interesting articles on their experiments into psychoacoustics etc. The one key difference between speaker testing and headphone "testing" is that the headphone listener is not subjected to reflections and out-of-phase signals as occurs in a normal listening environment. Perhaps some of you will find this interesting... Perhaps not. Cheers.

When people percieve a difference because they expect a difference that is a simple placebo effect.

I can only speak for myself in regard to a simple change in interconnect in headphone and amp listening and people I have conducted a little test with.

I can say that I expected at most a small change in the sound quality and bought the interconnect because the one originally supplied was simply too long and twisted. Given I did not expect an improvement it is unlikely to be a placebo effect. Yet I was staggered by how much better my new interconnect was.

I asked five people to listen to my set-up with the old interconnect and the new interconnect. I did not allow those people to view which interconnect was connected at any given listen and each person was asked to listen to identical music from an identical start point for 30 seconds. There were four listens per person two with each interconnect.

Results

The AudioLineOut Solid silver mini to mini was stated as being a better quality sound every single time by all five people.

10-0 was the result on a blind test with five different people- one was someone with tin ears!!

I do not think this was the placebo effect.

Whether the set-up I have allows for such a difference that is far greater than that usually seen, whether it is something more prevalent with headphones with headphone amps etc I have no idea and cannot say.

 

[dura]

On a dutch board we had this fellow who was absolutely sure it was all imagination; he poisoned every cable treat with telling people they were imagining things, and challenged everyone for a double blind test. Finally some people agreed, negotiating that he would leave if they could distinguish between 3 interconnects.
They could very significantly in a blind test.

I've got two very different cables here; an audioquest coral, shielded, solid core copper, and a DIY with eichmann plug, braided, solid core silver with teflon.
If you would not hear the difference between these cables on your own gear you would be deaf or need new stuff.

But different is not better, and more expensive is not better.

 

[Black Stuart]

I vote a definate YES and this from someone was a total skeptic until very recently.

Dura - there is a nederlander who uses the handle KlausB and there is a thread on the Vinyl Engine about PCs and he says "I don't trust my own ears" - this is crazy. he buys on measurements - well who the hell is listening to the music - the measuring equipment.

I have recently used a new i/c, which is commercial and not expensive and a homebrew PC, which I used to use connected to a PSU (for my CDP) but which now powers my new h/amp - BadaPH12.

In both cases the difference was a shock, a very positive shock. On another thread (PCs') markl has pointed out what many have said that it is'nt always the most expensive which give the best result and of course there is that alchemist's word - synergy.

Others have rightly said that it takes a certain level of quality of equipment before the cable differences become apparent.

I normally make all my own i/cs and PCs' and would urge others to do the same. Let's face it all different types of materials can be purchased and this is much easier for those in North America.

Without wishing to hijack this thread but I am about to order some bulk wires and would appreciate the opinions of others re. silver plated copper v copper.
Who has experienced differences with these materials and what were they - or should I start a new thread - I think it's important.

Stuart

 

[Riboge]

Duro and chrisco, thank you so much for reporting those convincing demonstrations of hearing differences made by cables serving the same function and all basically well-made. To any reasonable person, I say, those reports establish that there is a difference between at least some cables that can be discerned by at least some people in conditions that reduce or eliminate the role of motivation or suggestion. It only takes one person distinguishing blindly and repeatedly the difference between two cables to prove that cables CAN sound different. What you cited goes well beyond that.

It doesn't prove that all cables differ or that all people can distinguish ones that are different, or that the difference is important or better or worth any particular amount of money. It just should end assertions that adequately constructed cables of different makes can not sound different and therefore one can say they do not sound different in any given case without even listening to them.

 

[lini]

I've mostly tried different rca/rca, rca/mini and mini/mini interconnects in the moderate price range - both ready made ones (from companies like Öhlbach, Vivanco, Goldkabel, Tech+Link, Monster, Cordial...) and diy constructions (using several different RG series and antenna coax cables...). To my ears, some make a slight difference. But it's really very small - especially compared to the differences one can hear between different loudspeakers, headphones, phono cartridges et cetera, but also compared to the fluctuations of my hearing ability over the day and my listening mood. And even if I hear (or believe to hear

) a difference, I often enough have a hard time to reach a verdict about the better & worse. And of course it also depends on the rest of the equipment - e.g. turntable & cdp owners might find that different ics from table to phono stage have a bigger impact than from cdp to amp...

Greetings from Munich!

Manfred / lini

 

[chrisco]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Black Stuart I vote a definate YES and this from someone was a total skeptic until very recently. Dura - there is a nederlander who uses the handle KlausB and there is a thread on the Vinyl Engine about PCs and he says "I don't trust my own ears" - this is crazy. he buys on measurements - well who the hell is listening to the music - the measuring equipment.

Having not been to the toilet for a few hours I nearly pizzled myself when I read that….hilarious. You can’t trust your ears only equipment based measurements Haha

Given that your ear is the end of the line in terms of dealing with amplified waves- or sounds Haha if he likes what he hears but the measurements don’t stack up does he say to himself that his ears are wrong and choose equipment that is more distasteful to his ears because COMPUTER SAYS- YES.

Can we apply the same to taste?

So if you don’t like the taste of Brandy but it is expensive and you prefer the taste of beer do you only give yourself Brandy?

If you can’t individually choose your own taste, aural pleasure, preferences in literature/movies .women etc what is the point in having your own senses? Is beauty in the eye of the beholder? COMPUTER SAYS- NO Haha Amazing…

What is the point in being who you are if you deny what it is that makes you that!

I tell you what I don’t ****ing trust his judgment his intellect, his logical reasoning and perhaps his sanity. I must say if I had his senses I’d go off measurements as well- so come to think about it he is completely right. He should go and read off all the ****ing measurements and graphs that equate to all the pleasures and experiences in his life and snuff his own wick.

But Synergy Dura?

Never heard of the theory, I hope you have a pie chart to back this up?


Quote:

Originally Posted by Riboge Duro and chrisco, thank you so much for reporting those convincing demonstrations of hearing differences made by cables serving the same function and all basically well-made. To any reasonable person, I say, those reports establish that there is a difference between at least some cables that can be discerned by at least some people in conditions that reduce or eliminate the role of motivation or suggestion. It only takes one person distinguishing blindly and repeatedly the difference between two cables to prove that cables CAN sound different. What you cited goes well beyond that. It doesn't prove that all cables differ or that all people can distinguish ones that are different, or that the difference is important or better or worth any particular amount of money. It just should end assertions that adequately constructed cables of different makes can not sound different and therefore one can say they do not sound different in any given case without even listening to them.

I know you believe you understand what you think I said, but I am not sure you realise that what you heard is not what I meant. Richard Nixon. Haha

Kidding- things that are worded too precisely often sound almost beyond comprehension, IKEA furniture instructions, detailed directions etc.

I agree with everything you have said.



P.S

I’m off to watch a TV program because the ratings are just peachy, who knows if gay becomes the statistical norm maybe I’ll just have to get into new equipment

worse still I might have to start actively listening to Kenny G and jiving in elevators if a decimal place shifts…..

 

[bigshot]

It's amazing that the results from DOCUMENTED double blind tests differ so greatly from these ANECDOTAL single blind ones. It's also amazing how fast certain posters will accept the results of these informally conducted, anecdotal tests when they coincide with their own belief, and vehemently reject differing results obtained from carefully controlled, documented testing. Why no complaints about testing parameters now?

If I put an underline under the word "hoodoo" does it make it more self evident to reasonable people?

See ya
Steve

 

[philodox]

Wow man, when you talk in CAPS it really drives the point home. Doesn't make you sound like an ass at all!

I have yet to see a meaningfull well documented double blind test that relates to any cables which I have experience with. I'm sure you have a list of fun links hidden away in your Bookmarks. Care to share?

It's amazing to me that people would blindly believe what someone else has written rather than actually trying something themselves and forming their own opinion. And I believe you are the gentleman that has never sampled a high end source, yet believes sources don't make a difference?

...but perhaps we should save that for another thread.

 

[bigshot]

I've been working in audio recording and post production for over 20 years. I've worked with a wide variety of pro grade equipment. You must be thinking of someone else.

See ya
Steve

 

[883dave]

Quote:

Originally Posted by philodox It's amazing to me that people would blindly believe what someone else has written rather than actually trying something themselves and forming their own opinion. And I believe you are the gentleman that has never sampled a high end source, yet believes sources don't make a difference?

No I think this is the man that believes one of the most important parts of picking a good CD player is the remote control.

Quote:

Originally Posted by bigshot Look VERY carefully at the remote control and try it out before you buy. Most CD players have remotes that are completely infuriating to use... one button will do seven different things depending on what "mode" you are in. Look particularly for remotes that have the buttons you use frequently (ie: play, pause, stop, scan forward/back) separate from the rest in a place where your fingers can find them in dim light. This is my prime consideration when buying a CD player any more. See ya Steve

 

[Vul Kuolun]

I know of 2 veeery anal designed blind tests made at a german hifi forum, test-setups were made conjointly between believers and skeptics. Results were absolutely contrary to the ones posted above.

Reading posts like "haha they don't trust their ears, do they choose their women after measurements haha" tell me the real trenchline lies in self assessment, and the value one admits to the fact that human perception is everything but objektive.

I just can not understand the complete lack of self criticism showing in the majority of posts on the subject.

Of course do i not trust my own ears, when doing a comparison. Do you think, if i made a test today (and there was a "real" difference), i would hear it? Even if i told you that i was really skeptic about my own belief that there is no difference?

I don't know about you, but everytime i try new gear, or another speaker placing, EQ-setting, etc, i'm hoping it will make difference/ improvement. Otherwise, i (and you) wouldn't try it. Don't you find it hard sometimes to isolate real improvement from the desire to have an improvement? Do you really believe, that knowing about the effects of wishful thinking, placebo, whatever you wanna call it, does protect you from undergoing this effects?

Are some here really naive enough to believe that beeing skeptic about something does prevent your brain from affecting your perception?

BTW, i'm not at all as sure as you might think because of my previous postings that cables make no difference. I'm just wondering why there's so little skepticism at all in the believers camp, unless it realy goes into absurdity like brilliant pebbles. I mean, when we buy a new car, vacuum cleaner, or whatever, we look at was the seller has to say, and if it makes sense. If there's obviously no data to back the sellers revolutionary(!) statements up, we usually get very critical. Why is hifi and esp. cables such an exception? How many threads are here about relabeled standard cables?

To come to an end, i think the discussion is totally missing something: The fact, that if it really is true that reasonably designed cables used in a reasonable surrounding (esp. input- and outputimpedances) sound different is either aREAL BIG DEAL in psycho- and/or electroacoustics. It tells nothing less than there is a real huge gap in what we know today about perception of sound and electricity.

The fact, that only sellers or people not familiar with the amount of knowledge already available in these territories devote themselfes to these phenomenons (and most of the time, heavily neglecting possible reasons acounted in the testperson itself) tells me more than any test, regardless of the results.

 

[bigshot]

The ergonomics of remote controls has gone downhill lately. Anyone with a recent electronic device that uses a remote will attest to the complete lack of logic of the placement of the buttons and the complexity and non-intuitiveness of menu options. I have remotes where the same button does three completly different things depending on what "mode" the remote is in. This lack of design can make a cd player irritating to use. I don't know what that has to do with the way wires sound, but it's certainly true.

There seem to be three or four people whose egos give them problems with my posts. I'm simply stating opinions and giving supporting arguments to back them up. You should try to relax and not get so emotionally involved with discussions in internet chat boards.

See ya
Steve