Poll: Do Power Conditioners Help or Hurt ?

May 28, 2011 at 3:08 PM Thread Starter Post #1 of 42

upstateguy

Headphoneus Supremus
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Over the years I've read that power conditioners both help and hurt the sound.
 
Some say it makes the sound sterile while some say it makes the sound cleaner.
 
What's going on?
 
What are your Power Conditioner Impressions?
 
USG
 
May 28, 2011 at 4:44 PM Post #2 of 42
I'm not entirely convinced power conditioners do either.

Every piece of gear comes with power conditioning in its power supply. If the power supply is inadequate, then it's not a good piece of gear.

I'm only in favor of isolation transformers and RFI filters. An isolation transformer will kill ground loops (assuming you have one) and also take any DC off the line, which isn't good for power transformers. A RFI filter removes RFI. RFI isn't always there, but a filter is like $3, so I put them in builds just because.

I like surge protectors, too. Though I unplug stuff if there's an electrical storm coming through.
 
May 29, 2011 at 2:22 AM Post #3 of 42
I never thought they would make that big of a difference until I received my APS Purepower 700. It takes the incoming ac and converts it to dc and stores it in a battery and then outputs a perfectly 120 sine wave out. I bought it to stop my line from sagging causing noise issues with my tube amp when the air conditioner and such kick on. I came to realize it was of the biggest improvements I have done to my system. The bass increased dramatically bringing out quiet bass lines I hadnt noticed before in some of my music. It also allowed more detail to come through and just took away a layer of grunge dropping the noise floor and allowing a clarity/transparency I have never been able to achieve before. If I had to rebuild my system, it would be one of the first things I would buy.
 
I had a monster power power conditioner before the APS and it didnt make a difference with it in or out of my system. I left it in to protect from surges, but that is about all that it was good for.
 
May 31, 2011 at 4:45 AM Post #4 of 42
 
Quote:
Over the years I've read that power conditioners both help and hurt the sound.
 
Some say it makes the sound sterile while some say it makes the sound cleaner.
 
What's going on?
 
What are your Power Conditioner Impressions?
 
USG


All true.  It depends on what's being plugged in and the power supply of equipment.
Maybe lower-end gear benefit more?  I don't really know much on the subject, except that my Belkin PureAV filter/protector/isolator makes my lowly DAC smoother and more detailed with better bass response, imaging, extension at the extremes, and the list goes on.  Not a massive difference, but not subtle in the least.
My rig sounds a bit better with my transports plugged into the filter, too.
 
 
May 31, 2011 at 4:08 PM Post #5 of 42
Power Conditioning in the form of isolation Xformers and now Balananced Power has been beneficial for me. The improvements are not night and day, but noticeable. Music and video plays either way, but in my systems, the benefits are visually and audibly apparent.  
 
May 31, 2011 at 4:16 PM Post #6 of 42
Interesting. Lamm Reference mono's, Meridian CDPs, Manley, PSE, Quicksilver, EAD, Wyred 4 Sound, and other upscale gear I've personally owned over the years realized improvements to me. I "thought" they were all good pieces of gear. I agree that isolation provides the most benefit, and I recommend isolation via balanced power.    
 
Quote:
Every piece of gear comes with power conditioning in its power supply. If the power supply is inadequate, then it's not a good piece of gear.
 



 
 
May 31, 2011 at 7:52 PM Post #7 of 42
The question as specified is to broad to give a reasonable answer.
 
Lots of things are called power conditioners.
 
Some are as simple as a few MOV's, maybe a parallel input inductor and a couple of capacitors.
These things are useless. Don't help, Don't hurt, Don't do anything.
 
Some are parallel resonant inductors. Richard Gray's units are such a device.
 
Some are isolation transformers, and some of these things are harmonically neutralized.
Wonderful for removing ground loops and making an ultra noise free background.
The more iron and more weight the better. If you don't get a hernia moving the thing its
not big enough.
 
Then there are many versions of UPS things. Most of which produce horrible square waves, truncated
sine waves, or various versions of PWM usually in the name of efficiency. APC and Eaton make such
devices, absolutely great for computer farms, horrible for audio.
 
True sine wave regenerators (i.e. first turn the ac into dc, possibly into a battery, then turn back into AC) are
very inefficient, typically wasting 50% of the input power. The PSaudio powerplant is one such item.
The old levinson monster mono block amplifiers did this internally for all of the input and gain stages.
 
Other things like the monster with the motor driven variac do an effective job of buck/boost and ground
isolation.
 
Jun 1, 2011 at 2:22 AM Post #8 of 42
 
Quote:
True sine wave regenerators (i.e. first turn the ac into dc, possibly into a battery, then turn back into AC) are
very inefficient, typically wasting 50% of the input power. The PSaudio powerplant is one such item.
The old levinson monster mono block amplifiers did this internally for all of the input and gain stages.
 

Actually the APS purepower series does very well in this area. It has an efficiency rating of 85% -92% depending on load.
 
Jun 2, 2011 at 3:41 PM Post #9 of 42
The question do power conditioners help or hurt can't really be answered with a simple yes or no. Some help, other hurt, others don't do anything. In general the cheap stuff is nearly worthless. Surge/spike "protection" is provided via noisy, sound degrading sacrificial MOVs that are ineffective at stopping most kinds of power problems. The cheap power strips also almost always use a type of power filter that severely limits current, which is why you will see dedicated "high current" or "amplifier" outlets with less filtering - avoid.
 
Once you get past the junky Monster Cable stuff, companies attempt to deal with AC line noise in a large number of different ways. Active regeneration is not the holy grail that companies like Exact Power, PS Audio, or PurePower make it out to be. I've heard a few of these, both the old linear amp based heat monsters, and the new efficient digital amp variety, and while good, I don't think they are in the same league as the best passive conditioners.
 
Balanced transformers are probably one of the oldest types of conditioners, but the best models from B-P-T and Silver Circle can still sound fantastic. The downside is that a big enough transformer for a full system is going to be heavy, and there's a possibility of annoying transformer hum.
 
Capacitor based conditioners can also be superb, and they don't have the weight problem of a big transformer. No hum either. IMO the Audience Teflon conditioners are the best of this type. There are also inductor/capacitor based models, which I think is how the Running Springs and Isotek units work.
 
Then you have the really out there stuff - Synergistic Powercell, the Audio-Magic black boxes, and the newest Shunyata models which have moved away from capacitors and now just use purely passive noise reduction compounds in big tubes.
 
Jun 2, 2011 at 4:12 PM Post #10 of 42

Quote:
The question do power conditioners help or hurt can't really be answered with a simple yes or no. Some help, other hurt, others don't do anything. In general the cheap stuff is nearly worthless. Surge/spike "protection" is provided via noisy, sound degrading sacrificial MOVs that are ineffective at stopping most kinds of power problems. The cheap power strips also almost always use a type of power filter that severely limits current, which is why you will see dedicated "high current" or "amplifier" outlets with less filtering - avoid.
 
 
 

I do agree with your thoughts DaveBSC! Use these only if you have nothing else.. I, myself really hear or (Don't hear) any noise when I stuck in a "Quantum Charger" built by Bybee Technologies into my Head phone system.... My Main system uses the "Clean Line Conditioning" by VansEvers, along with Tube Lambda power supplies....... So Some work and some limit current/power and add their own noise.....PS.. here's when you need to have some (richer and friendly) audiophile buddies that have the latest and greatest "Stuff" and will let you try different types!  Thanks Larry!!!
 
 
 
Jun 3, 2011 at 10:23 AM Post #12 of 42
The poll needed the option of sometimes. My mains conditioner has been used in four houses and its effects have varied with each one, which must be down to how noisy the mains are in the first place.
 
Jun 3, 2011 at 11:12 AM Post #13 of 42
Has the effect been so minimal that you didn't need some form of conditioning? 
 
Personally, my music and video systems have always benefited, even with new infrastructure (e.g. new housing and surrounding developemet). So, to me the Yes or No vote is approrpriate. 
 
In fact, I no longer wonder if there will be a difference. Becuase the difference is always audible and visible, all my music and video systems (in different rooms in my case) are sourced from conditioned AC (heavy, back-braking balanced power isolation xformers). 
 
Quote:
The poll needed the option of sometimes. My mains conditioner has been used in four houses and its effects have varied with each one, which must be down to how noisy the mains are in the first place.



 
 
Jun 3, 2011 at 11:35 AM Post #14 of 42
Yes, one of the houses, it made no difference at all to the hifi or the TV. Another house it made no difference to the hifi, but did to the TV. Presently I have two as it was so clear and I am sure the use of a laptop as a source had made things worse. The other houses a CDP was the source.
 
Jun 3, 2011 at 9:23 PM Post #15 of 42


Quote:
 
Actually the APS purepower series does very well in this area. It has an efficiency rating of 85% -92% depending on load.


Yes, and the new PS Audio PerfectWave power plants have an 85% - 90% efficiency so I'm not sure where Gilmore is getting his figures from.
50% efficiency would be horrible and I can't imagine anyone wanting to use such a device.
 
I do think regenerators make a positive difference overall (some items don't work well with them, it just depends on your component).  I have a P5 and I think it's a nice step up from their old model, the PPP, which wound up dying and frying some of my gear.  The P5s are also made here in the U.S. so that's nice for a change.
 
I have mixed feelings about power conditioners... they often do as much harm as they do good.
 
 

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