Poll: Do Power Conditioners Help or Hurt ?

[Mad Max]

 
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Originally Posted by IPodPJ /img/forum/go_quote.gif

 
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I have mixed feelings about power conditioners... they often do as much harm as they do good.

Like how?
 

 

[DaveBSC]

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Yes, and the new PS Audio PerfectWave power plants have an 85% - 90% efficiency so I'm not sure where Gilmore is getting his figures from.
50% efficiency would be horrible and I can't imagine anyone wanting to use such a device.
 
I do think regenerators make a positive difference overall (some items don't work well with them, it just depends on your component).  I have a P5 and I think it's a nice step up from their old model, the PPP, which wound up dying and frying some of my gear.  The P5s are also made here in the U.S. so that's nice for a change.

 
I think Kevin was referring to products like the original PS Power Plants (P300/500/600/1000/1200) which used linear amplifiers which waste half their power. The P1000 and P1200 were absolute monsters. The PPP changed to a switching amplifier so the efficiency improved quite a bit. I haven't heard of PPPs actually taking out connected equipment when they crap out before, wow that sucks. Admittedly I lost most of my interest in PS products when my own PPP died, and after being less than impressed with the sound quality of their other products like the "amazing" gaincell amplifiers and their old power cords so I stopped reading their forums regularly.
 
I'm curious how PS responded to your issue. Some of my stuff is irreplaceable, so I would be royally mad if that happened to me.

 
 

 

[Prog Rock Man]

Quote:

 

Like how?
 

There are lots of reports of them sucking the dynamics out of the music, particularly when used on amps.
 
I decide how well they work by listening without music and turning the volume to see when background hiss becomes apparent. I think they are a bit like Dolby on cassettes. You could use Dolby to reduce hiss, but that could flatten the dynamics at the same time.
 

 

[TheAttorney]

+1 to just about all from Dave BSC and other comments along the lines of "it depends....".
 
A year or so ago, I posted a rave review of the Audience power conditioner in the high end forum - using the "cheaper" non-teflon version. At the time, I was bowled over by the improvement it gave, and I'll soon be re-appraising it in a power-circuit cable shootout, where I'll be comparing the conditioner v standard dedicated mains spur v Furutech audiophile dedicated mains spur v original ring circuit.  Recently moved house and took the opportunity to install 2 dedicated spurs. This was based on the question: If the last 3 feet of power cable makes a difference, then what about the previous feet coming from the Consumer Unit (fuse box). And are the effects cumulative? A brief initial test gave an interesting and slightly unexpected result.
 
Quote:

I do think regenerators make a positive difference overall (some items don't work well with them, it just depends on your component).  I have a P5 and I think it's a nice step up from their old model, the PPP, which wound up dying and frying some of my gear.  The P5s are also made here in the U.S. so that's nice for a change.
I have mixed feelings about power conditioners... they often do as much harm as they do good.
 

 
The PPP I feel is an example of "it depends". I tried to audition it against the Audience, but didn't because 2 high end dealers stopped selling it, One because their customers reported squashing of dynamics when using power amps (but source equipment was fine). The other because of the occasional frying issue

which, in the UK at least, only happened in a particular mode when power amps  in use.  PS Audio seem like a good company and I think they've changed the design since then, but I haven't been following the story for some time.
 
 

 

[DaveBSC]

Quote:

The PPP I feel is an example of "it depends". I tried to audition it against the Audience, but didn't because 2 high end dealers stopped selling it, One because their customers reported squashing of dynamics when using power amps (but source equipment was fine). The other because of the occasional frying issue

which, in the UK at least, only happened in a particular mode when power amps  in use.  PS Audio seem like a good company and I think they've changed the design since then, but I haven't been following the story for some time.
 
 

Active regenerators definitely limit current to some degree, despite the assurances from the manufacturer that they don't (up to the 1200 watt limit or whatever the rated output is). I think they are definitely best used on source equipment, or very low powered amplifiers with relatively steady current demands. The PPP definitely had some serious QC issues, I think partially due to design problems, and partially due to issues with the plant in China. I would hope that the new PW Power Plants are much better, but my $5K would still go to RSA, Audience, or Silver Circle.
 

 

[Arnaldo]

Is anyone here familiar with units like the PS Audio Duet, Shunyata Hydra 2, Furman AC-215A, or anything similar? Would they offer any benefits for a simple 2 component system consisting of a Sony SCD-XA5400ES SACD Player (with VSE Terra Firma Lite Balanced Upgrade) and a SPL Phonitor? I'd be open as well for more costly options if necessary. Or does it make more sense to just buy a cheap power-strip from the local hardware store?

 

[DaveBSC]

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Is anyone here familiar with units like the PS Audio Duet, Shunyata Hydra 2, Furman AC-215A, or anything similar? Would they offer any benefits for a simple 2 component system consisting of a Sony SCD-XA5400ES SACD Player (with VSE Terra Firma Lite Balanced Upgrade) and a SPL Phonitor? I'd be open as well for more costly options if necessary. Or does it make more sense to just buy a cheap power-strip from the local hardware store?

The Duet is surprisingly effective for its modest price, and is a great entry level power conditioner and component protector. The Duet actually provides real protection against surges and spikes, which the Monster strips and similar "surge protectors" do not. Bbeyond that, it does definitely improve power line quality, particularly in a headphone setup where massive current draw is not a requirement. I'm not familiar with that particular Furman, but they do have a good reputation for solid products. 
 
The Hydra 2 is just insanely overpriced, much like the 4 and 6 versions. Basically it's an outlet with a $2 noise suppression cap on it wired to an IEC inlet and put in a box. The 4 and 6 are just more outlets in bigger boxes. The only component protection is the same type of crappy MOV you'll find in a Walmart power strip. It's not that they don't do anything, the caps are effective for what they do, it's that Shunyata charges some $500 for the Hydra 2, with a cost to them of maybe $50, and that's being generous. The 4 and 6 have fancier cases, but I can't imagine the build cost is that much higher. A DIY Hydra is extremely easy to make - get a nice Hubbell or Leviton outlet (or the hardware store special if you don't care about that part), the same $2 Vishay or similar cap that Shunyata uses, some hook-up wire, an IEC inlet (or you can directly wire the AC cord to the outlet), and a box. If you build it without the MOV there won't be any protection (not that the MOV really provides any anyway) but it will sound better.
 
Some much better alternatives to the Hydra 2 are the Silver Circle Juice Box Jr, the PI Audio MajikBUSS, and the B-P-T CPC.

 

[Arnaldo]

Thank you so much for your help. Like many others with no experience on the subject, I was inclined to think that the more expensive Hydra would be more effective. I'll research the ones you mentioned, the Silver Circle Juice Box Jr, PI Audio MajikBUSS, and B-P-T CPC, but at this stage, I'm inclined to follow your recommendation and go with the PS Audio Duet. Again, thanks for your input on the matter!
 
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[DaveBSC]

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Thank you so much for your help. Like many others with no experience on the subject, I was inclined to think that the more expensive Hydra would be more effective. I'll research the ones you mentioned, the Silver Circle Juice Box Jr, PI Audio MajikBUSS, and B-P-T CPC, but at this stage, I'm inclined to follow your recommendation and go with the PS Audio Duet. Again, thanks for your input on the matter!
 

 
Sure. Another option you may want to take a look at is the Audience Ar2p. It's a bit more expensive than the others, but it plugs straight into the wall so you do not need to buy a power cord for it (good ones are $150+).
 
 

 

[Arnaldo]

I actually saw the Ar2p on sale while looking for the Duet. The problem for me though is a lack of space near my wall outlet. Thanks again!
 
PS: I'm still in shock over your revelations about the Hydra...
 
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Sure. Another option you may want to take a look at is the Audience Ar2p. It's a bit more expensive than the others, but it plugs straight into the wall so you do not need to buy a power cord for it (good ones are $150+).
 

 

 

[Dynobot]

Some help, some hurt, some do absolutely nothing.
 
I had a PS Audio Duet, it did absolutely nothing to the sound. Absolutely no difference between it and plugging into the wall with any product I tried.
I had a Monster power conditioner that helped with digital gear [blacker background] but at the same time hurt in dynamics [lost some crispness and depth in sound-stage]
I have a AGD power filter that helps digital gear with the 70db filter outlet, helps my tube gear on the 50db filter and seems to not make any difference with the DC filter outlet.
 
Of course my answer will not represent everyone's experiences, ymmv, synergy is the key......etc etc etc

 

[DaveBSC]

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I actually saw the Ar2p on sale while looking for the Duet. The problem for me though is a lack of space near my wall outlet. Thanks again!
 
PS: I'm still in shock over your revelations about the Hydra...

Gotcha.
This is what the inside of the $1,000 Hydra 4 looks like. Two outlets with one suppression cap each, a couple of buss bars, a switch, and a MOV. Thousand bucks. Just amazing.
 

 
For comparison, here's what goes inside Audience's AR6-T:
 

 

[Arnaldo]

Truly unbelievable! Basically, the Hydra is an expensive empty box. Your pics should be a mandatory requirement for anyone on the market for power conditioners, regardless of price. And it's a good thing we have threads like this to expose these things...
 
Quote:

Gotcha.
This is what the inside of the $1,000 Hydra 4 looks like. Two outlets with one suppression cap each, a couple of buss bars, a switch, and a MOV. Thousand bucks. Just amazing. [...]
 
For comparison, here's what goes inside Audience's AR6-T: [...]
 

 
 

 

[DaveBSC]

Quote:

Some help, some hurt, some do absolutely nothing.
 
I had a PS Audio Duet, it did absolutely nothing to the sound. Absolutely no difference between it and plugging into the wall with any product I tried.
I had a Monster power conditioner that helped with digital gear [blacker background] but at the same time hurt in dynamics [lost some crispness and depth in sound-stage]
I have a AGD power filter that helps digital gear with the 70db filter outlet, helps my tube gear on the 50db filter and seems to not make any difference with the DC filter outlet.
 
Of course my answer will not represent everyone's experiences, ymmv, synergy is the key......etc etc etc

Absolutely agree that the conditioner experience can be positive, negative, or nil. I've heard some improvements from the Duet, but I would probably recommend it more for its protection capabilities than its sound. The MajikBUSS and UberBUSS are a significant step up in terms of sound improvements compared to the Duet, but they also cost quite a bit more. Most products at the $250 level do a lot more harm than good.

 

[Dynobot]

Quote:

 Most products at the $250 level do a lot more harm than good.

You are right...
 
In my case I found that using a good isolation transformer on noisy gear like PC's, TV's etc to stop them from polluting the AC line worked best for a low cost solution.
 
After that, if i still felt I needed some quality AC I would rather spend $1K on a dedicated AC line instead of a Power Conditioner.
 
It might be worth pricing it out.....