[blipblop]

I know those of you who have been here for awhile are completel fed up with "best headphones" threads, I hope that my thorough explanation of what I desire may yield a thread that will finally help me see the clearing in the woods, and help others, since so many of these threads - and I've scoured a bunch - can't provide guidance, when no criteria for selection is ever mentioned.

It’s been a little while since I’ve been at this board, and since I purchased my Grado Sr60s. I bought these sight unseen based on the almost uniform reviews of this can as an entry-level piece. And it was, in many ways, although having been exposed to the PortaPros before, it wasn’t as much of a jump as I’d expected – I still regard the PortaPros as the cherry popper of my eardrums.
Although I do like the Grados, however, I’m starting to realize that they aren’t for me. Their sound is far clearer than the PortaPros, but this seems to come at a price – a lack of real, moving bass. At first, I thought that the trade-off was worth it – the lack of muddiness of the PortaPros for a reduced bass and stronger midrange. But as an avid electronic music fan, I can't deny my feelings any longer. Especially when the Grados are so clear and crisp that it hurts to listen to them.

So, I am going to sell my Grados. The problem is, what’s next? I spent so much time in infatuation with my first audiophile phones, and now with amp-building (as an attempt to awaken the bass in my Grados!), that I really don’t know much more about headphones now than I did then. I have reserarched and scoured Head-Fi for the past few days, but there seems to be so many variations in opinion that no real guidance apart from general directions (i.e, Senns are laid-back, Sony’s suck except for the V6 and CD3K) can be had - my purchase of the grados, in fact, was partly because the consensus surrounding them was stronger than any other Can. I played it safe.

That said, I have finally figured a way to articulate my desire. So here it goes. I want a headphone that has solid bass, without spoiling the music. I want the strength of the portapros (or maybe even a little less), but not just that strength – I want something that reproduces, or at least approaches the clarity of the Grados. I want the bass to really be there, but not overshadow the mids or highs. I DON’T want shrilly music – the grados give me headaches! It need not be a “megabass” type headphone, since I’m not looking for that, but damn it, the Grados just can’t push it through. You know, if I could just mute the shrillyness of the grados a bit, and turn up the bass a bit, I would have the cans of my dreams - I'd also make it more comfortable.

Is this a realistic possibility for cans around $200 or less (perhaps used)? Or is this dual fetish of clarity and bass the elusive holy grail – I wonder since most criticisms of heavy bass cans are that they are cloudy, drown the other ranges, and have no treble, while the criticism of bright cans (like the grados) is that they lack impactful bass.

I don’t need perfect reproduction – I don’t mind, and may even like “warm” headphones. I want to groove to some crisp AND deep house beats, but also listen to The Smiths and enjoy the jangly guitars. How can I do that?!

I promise this is the last “what are the best headphone” posts I’ll ever make, since I’ve already stated my ultimate goal. Your help is SOOOO appreciated, and PLEASE, try and be as objective and thoughtful as possible - as much as I love help, I can’t really do anything with a “V6’s kick ass”, or “DT880s for sure”.

Thanks again.

 

[usc goose]

er-4?

edit: what grados are you talking about anyways? have you tried flats to tame the shrill. er-4 might be what you're looking for. that is if you can get a good seal and deal with the canalphone concept. i have a lot of respect for ety bass and the way it's well formed and controled and the way it always seems just right.

 

[Skarecrow]

You might want to look at a pair of Senn HD590s. I know they can be had under $200. Actually I've heard of them running around at the $150 price point here and there.

They are definatly Senns in sound quality, but they have a noticably more prounounced low/mid bass response than the 580/600 series, and quite frankly they have superior bass to my 650s at the moment (even though the 650s are more tight and precise), however the 650s beat the 590s handily at everything else. The 570/590 series are more agressive than the other senns, at the expense of a bit of clarity and sweetness, however they are a world above my KSC50s (which use the same drivers as the portapros) in those regards.

Just make sure you audition a broken-in pair. They sound harsh and muddy for at least the first 48 hours.

 

[blipblop]

That's a great suggestion - actually I had read about this twice, but chalked it up to simple opinion. This third suggestion makes me excited - why is it that the 590 has a more pronounced Bass compared to the Hd600 and HD650? I thought that teh 580/590/600 were almost identical in driver?

Also, here's an interesting question to ask: does the fact that I dislike the shrilly (what I believe you all mean by bright), headache producing sound of the Grados suggest that I will like Senns laid-back sound better? Is there an in-between brand. I apologize for all the point-plotting, but I'm trying to determine the topology of the headphone market. So far I see Grados and Senns being described often against each other, but rarely any other cans mention as in between these two reference points, if they are in fact reference points. Does that make sense?

 

[Skarecrow]

Well, I get the impression that Sennheiser is your Coke, and Grado is your Pepsi. Sure there are people who prefer RC cola, and Jolt Cola, and Virgin cola, etc... but since the vast majority drink either coke or pepsi, those are the two you hear about the most often.

I have also heard that the 590s use the same driver as the 600s, and as I am not an audio engineer, I can only assume enclosure construction and materials is the key to the sound differences. The design of the 570/590 line is much different than the 580/600/650 line. The 580/600/650 is thinner, and much more oval to 570/590's bloated triangle shape. The 590 seems to incorporate a lot more plastic (it's high quality plastic, mind you) and less metal & ceramics(?) than my 650s, so that might make the clarity/bass differences as well. Perhaps the 590's enclousure resonate quite well.

If I could get the midrange & treble sound of my 650s into the comfortable fit of my 590s, with the low/mid bass response of my 590s, I'd have just about the perfect set of headphones in my mind.

 

[gerG]

Without eq, I would go for the Beyer DT250-250.

If you want bass that is tight, articulate, and extended, you will have to get an equalizer, because I have yet to hear headphones that can manage all 3 without help (yes, this includes the HD650). otoh with a bit of coaxing even the Fostex T50RP can yield astonishing bass (and mid, and treble) performance.

ok, that was my eq sermon for the week.


gerG

 

[kyrie]

The reason the bass on the HD590 seems more pronounced than on 580/600/650 is because 590 is recessed in midrange compared to the three. Because there is little midrange to cover up the bass in the 590, you hear it very clearly - same with treble, though the treble is a bit uncontrolled at times.

 

[tkam]

The Beyer DT770s are the king of bass but it can be overpowering at times. I think the audio-technica A900s might be right up your alley. A good overall sound and easy to drive make them probably my favorite closed phones at the $200 price point.

 

[Skarecrow]

Quote:

Originally posted by kyrie The reason the bass on the HD590 seems more pronounced than on 580/600/650 is because 590 is recessed in midrange compared to the three. Because there is little midrange to cover up the bass in the 590, you hear it very clearly - same with treble, though the treble is a bit uncontrolled at times.

While that may be true, when I compared them directly to one annother, switching A/B between my 590s and 650s on the same amp, my 590s simply have louder, stronger, and more pronounced bass than my 650s... not just stronger in relation to the it's own midrange, but in relation to the 650's as well. To be fair, my 650s only have about 18 hours of burn-in on them, but they have a LONG way to go to catch up to the 590s, if they even can..

 

[blipblop]

Thanks so much for the responses guys - surprised to see that BeyerDynamic is more along my lines.

gerG: why would you go for the DT250-250? Does it have a good midrange and hi area? Hows the soundstage?

Tkam: when you say overpowering, do you mean, over the rest of the sonic range, or over you? I am fond of bass so I doubt that it would overpower me, if that's what you refer to. If you refer to drowning out the other ranges, then I'm staying clear - I have the portapros to do that, and for $30! Let me know....

Scarecrow: from your last reply, am I correct to assume that the 590's have distinctly greater bass than the 600 and 650?

 

[gerG]

So far the DT250-250 represent the best bass compromise (for me) in an unassisted headphone. Bass is deep and powerful, without being too loose. The midrange is very smooth and detailed, and the highs are quite extended. The sound is much along the lines of the HD600 or Ety ER4s, with a better treble presence than the Sens and much more powerful bass than either. Critical for me is that there are no obtrusive peaks in the response spectrum. They do not have a broad soundstage. They are on the small side, so they do not fit some people. Do not confuse them with the DT250-80, which is a completely different animal (and not recommended).

The DT770 are waaaay overemphasized in the bass and midbass (like about 10db, last time I checked). They also have a very uneven response. otoh they work ok in noisy areas.


gerG

 

[blipblop]

Quote:

So far the DT250-250 represent the best bass compromise (for me) in an unassisted headphone

Since I plan to have a PPA amping the headphone, does this change your recommendation? Will a 590 amped by a PPA sound better in your opinion?

 

[Skarecrow]

Quote:

Originally posted by blipblop Scarecrow: from your last reply, am I correct to assume that the 590's have distinctly greater bass than the 600 and 650?

I am not sure what your defintion of distinctly is, but I would say that even for a non-audiophile (Do I still qualify for that title, having spent $650 on headphones and amp? haha), the difference in bass is immediatly noticeable to me.

On a somewhat related side note, I spent some time tweaking up the bass slightly using the software EQ in my GTXP (Check it's position in my audio loop in my sig) and putting some negative gain on the source output of the m-audio revo, and while it is hardly a perfect solution, The bass response of the 650s is now pretty close to what the 590s were doing, but still a little less boomy. I can't add boomyness with the software eq without losing clarity and inviting distortion. The fact that I need to use an EQ to get the bottom end of the 650s acting like the 590s do when flat, should tell you something about the bass of the 590s. It's one of the high points of the cans.

 

[Jasper994]

Based on the brief period I listened to the Beyer DT770's I think they might do it for you on bass. On the other hand I personally find the bass to be a bit overwhelming.

I personally have the HD 590 and like them very much. I'd definately agree that the bass is very impactful. I very much like these cans with DVD-Audio since they lend themselves very well to the lively full sound that DVD-A brings to the table. They do have the slighly recessed mid-range that everyone talks about but with DVD-A this is less noticeable.

That said, the 580/600/650's would likely be able to produce just as much or more bass if properly driven. That there in lies the reason why some people are unhappy with the 580/600 (maybe the 650 as well but it's new so I haven't heard much about them), they require very good amplification to be properly driven. I've heard the 600's from a serveral different sources and I can tell you there are huge differences as you go up the line (not necessarily price, but quality).

As you may have read before there are many claims that the 590's are the most Grado like. That statement is partially true in that given almost any source they will produce a lively sound. They are also slightly bright but not anywhere close to the SR-60's in my opinion. The brightness turns to very good extension when listening to DVD-A. What you will find, however, is that the 600's can also bring this livelyness to the table with proper amplification. My guess would be that the 580's and 600's can do this as well.

Anyway, good luck in your search.

 

[blipblop]

Thanks again for such informative posts.

Scarecrow: your explanation is really tilting me towards the 590!

Jasper: I keep seeing the 600 and above talked about requiring proper amplificaiton. I know for a fact that I will NEVER go above a PPA for amplification - I just don't have the money to do so. So, when you talk about proper amplification, does the PPA suffice?

So, the 590 really does sound like the phone I need. I am happy about the fact that it is called the most Grado-like, because I do enjoy some warmth - I don't want an overly analytical phone - the Grado's plus was that the were very musical from their warmth, but simply too much in the extreme. Therefore, Jasper's statement, that the 590 is brighter than the 580/600 but nowhere near the sr60's level sounds great.

I'm just wondering now, whether the PPA will bring the 600 to where scarecrow describes the 590 at. Scarecrow, did you have a chance to run both of these through an amp, along with the A/B'ing you did? If so, does your statement regarding a noticeable bass increase apply in that situation? If so, I think I'm going to go with the 590 because it sounds like the best of both worlds, a Senn with bass and the Senn sound that leans toward Grado warmth....what do you think?

Just to clear up a sidefancy, you all don't happen to have any experience with a Sony V6, do you?