[BassicScience]

I absolutely stand by that post. You can sit at home with a "prove it to me with numbers", but have a little respect for people who are actively building their own systems with trial and error. I was originally educated as an audio engineer and was taught that basically none of this stuff matters, except speaker wire might matter a tiny bit, and I was completely wrong.

It is difficult to try to describe these things in language, especially where audiophile vocabulary is waived off as being meaningless. Some of us are actually attempting to develop language around things that have not been easily identified before. In particular noise in power systems and digital systems is something you only appreciate once you've reduced it, because as I said, it is ubiquitous.

Use a Shunyata power cable with noise reduction on your amp, or an iPurifier 3 on your USB signal and you will hear exactly what I am talking about.

Yammering about bias and how insidious it is, and why we can't trust our ears seems mostly like a rationalization for those who aren't putting in the work and resources in their own systems and want an excuse to dismiss anybody who is. The emphasis on unnecessary and pedantic testing just serves a gatekeeping function, so you don't have to try any of this out for yourself.

What I dont get is why occupy a totally defensive and conservative position based in theory instead of trying things for yourself and developing direct knowledge? If you are that satisfied with your own system why bother anyone else from the sidelines?

Sure, feel free to mail me the above items, and I'll try them out and report back. Send me a PM to arrange it if you want.

 

[F208Frank]

So Ill write this response for you regarding why I did not bother answering your proposal to do your test.

Because even if I did do your test and report back of what I heard, you will just chalk it up to my own biases.

Also I have already done enough back and forth switching with multiple different lengths of time to listen for myself where I am comfortable with keeping it in my chain without any exterior validation.

I also felt it would have been a waste of time to be reporting back to you because I already did mention I hear difference but you auto assume the differences are just biases.

And then when I mentioned for you to have an open mind and go try yourself, you hit me back with you do not need to try because you already know that 1 plus 1 is 2 and not 3.

So why waste your own time to go in circles with this.

If you are not willing to try yourself, then just leave it be. You can have your beliefs and your technical background and I will have my non technical background but with naive open minded experimenting, I'll decide with my ears if the item was worth keeping or not.

I have no problem selling off stuff I do not like or want. I do not need to justify my purchase to myself but you keep making these assumptions, when you yourself seem pretty narrow and stuck with your expertise.

I understand this is your field, but if it bothers you that much, no one forced you to need to try. Just don't try and so be it. No need to be extra defensive in your stance, the hobby is supposed to be fun and I am definitely not going to let you take that away from me bruv.

Anyways maybe you had good intentions, but the way you speak about the subject and your words definitely had a tinge of condescending tone, which is why I kept messing with you.

Your lack of sleep is no excuse to disrespect other people. I had lack of sleep for multiple days also and you do not see me talking down to others.

Some 1 plus 1 equals 3 crap, some high horse megan the stallion crap. Some skip to my lou sky is blue mental midget bashing humpty dumpty crap.

Anyways despite the light tension I did enjoy the convo regardless. The main thing I took away was to be extra skeptical of everything and trial yourself with real world experience. These college degree working at wal mart suckahs ain't nothin mang. (Not saying that is you, just a metaphor)

 

[teknorob23]

Rather than drag this thread into the usual subjective debate, I'll hold off until some objective evidence is presented that supports a fact based discussion. Ethernet/802 may be the most ubiquitous and highly utilized standard on the planet, so if these problems exist, the data IS there to support that...

There isn't anything in an Ethernet connection that can't be seen on a scope, via a packet analyzer, or in the transmitted data. These tools are also available to the manufacturers. Why are they not producing evidence supporting their claims about their products?

Amazing contribution. Its just so incredibly useful to read your cut-and-paste theorising ruining yet another thread for those who want to discuss their real world experience of actually using a product, which is after all what the thread is about.

 

[bfreedma]

No.

Posting your expertise and then continuing to ask for others to “prove you wrong” or provide proof of their experience is fine. You’ve made your point so move on.

This is what the sound science forum is infamous for. You are enjoying not getting a response so you can persist to argue a point which you know is scientifically and objectively correct. But, no one is going to agree with you here and has little interest in proving anything to you.

Hence bullying.

Discussing facts equals bullying to subjectivists who refuse to acknowledge facts. Got it.

Doesn’t say much about the crowd posting here, but so be it.

I’d hate to be your doctor or any other professional you encounter.

 

[bfreedma]

I absolutely stand by that post. You can sit at home with a "prove it to me with numbers", but have a little respect for people who are actively building their own systems with trial and error. I was originally educated as an audio engineer and was taught that basically none of this stuff matters, except speaker wire might matter a tiny bit, and I was completely wrong.

It is difficult to try to describe these things in language, especially where audiophile vocabulary is waived off as being meaningless. Some of us are actually attempting to develop language around things that have not been easily identified before. In particular noise in power systems and digital systems is something you only appreciate once you've reduced it, because as I said, it is ubiquitous.

Use a Shunyata power cable with noise reduction on your amp, or an iPurifier 3 on your USB signal and you will hear exactly what I am talking about.

Yammering about bias and how insidious it is, and why we can't trust our ears seems mostly like a rationalization for those who aren't putting in the work and resources in their own systems and want an excuse to dismiss anybody who is. The emphasis on unnecessary and pedantic testing just serves a gatekeeping function, so you don't have to try any of this out for yourself.

What I dont get is why occupy a totally defensive and conservative position based in theory instead of trying things for yourself and developing direct knowledge? If you are that satisfied with your own system why bother anyone else from the sidelines?

I’ve “tried these things form myself” for over 40 years. I’ve also worked in the industry in question for 40 years. And let’s be clear, Ethernet/802 isn’t a theory, it’s a set of hard standards based on math and EE. Math and science that doesn’t change when the word “audiophile” gets inserted in front of “switch”.

So no, people plugging in a few Ethernet components, listening sighted, and proclaiming a difference isn’t some form of “intellectualism” you seem to be describing. It’s actually being used as a substitute for actual work and/or knowledge..

In the real world, extraordinary claims without any supporting evidence are summarily dismissed by the people responsible for ensuring these technologies work across the globe., The challenge here is many people conflate marketing material intended to sell product as fact.

So many examples of this in the last 4 years. What laymen want to believe trumps reality and knowledge (in their mind anyway)

 

[bfreedma]

Amazing contribution. Its just so incredibly useful to read your cut-and-paste theorising ruining yet another thread for those who want to discuss their real world experience of actually using a product, which is after all what the thread is about.

Oh look, A MOT/vendor with products to sell in this space who wants to shut down a conversation about the viability of said product.

Since you actually “design” and build these, you must be testing them to see what iterations of your efforts succeed and which need to go back to the drawing board. Producing those results would certainly lead to more sales, so please post them. If they show promise, I’ll buy your most expensive solution at full list price.

I’ve asked you this before and gotten no response - pretty telling. I mean you must either be measuring or conducting tests - how could anyone design electronics without doing that. Not doing so would be unconscionable to an engineer.

I’m not asking for any trade secrets (not that there are any), just a few examples of how you test your design theories. You can’t possibly be tuning an Ethernet switch by ear without any data, could you?

 

[Articnoise]

https://alpha-audio.net/review/zeven-switches-for-streaming-audio-tested-blind/

 

[teknorob23]

Oh look, A MOT/vendor with products to sell in this space who wants to shut down a conversation about the viability of said product.

Since you actually “design” and build these, you must be testing them to see what iterations of your efforts succeed and which need to go back to the drawing board. Producing those results would certainly lead to more sales, so please post them. If they show promise, I’ll buy your most expensive solution at full list price.

I’ve asked you this before and gotten no response - pretty telling. I mean you must either be measuring or conducting tests - how could anyone design electronics without doing that. Not doing so would be unconscionable to an engineer.

I’m not asking for any trade secrets (not that there are any), just a few examples of how you test your design theories. You can’t possibly be tuning an Ethernet switch by ear without any data, could you?

fair enough but its just a bit weird, because i cant work out what you get out of posting in these threads, because unless i'm missing something this thread is called "PhoenixNET Impressions". Do you have any? have you tried it?

 

[bfreedma]

fair enough but its just a bit weird, because i cant work out what you get out of posting in these threads, because unless i'm missing something this thread is called "PhoenixNET Impressions". Do you have any? have you tried it?

The entire point of my posts is to provide a counterpoint to the claims made by vendors and owners so potential customers can make an informed purchasing decision.

Why do repeated attempts at factual discussion upset you? And why can’t you, as a MOT provide any evidence that your product does anything, let alone improve audio?

 

[teknorob23]

The entire point of my posts is to provide a counterpoint to the claims made by vendors and owners so potential customers can make an informed purchasing decision.

Why do repeated attempts at factual discussion upset you? And why can’t you, as a MOT provide any evidence that your product does anything, let alone improve audio?

i'm flattered but sorry you must be confused i dont make the PhoenixNet.

Its just a shame you feel you have the right to wander around the forum shutting down conversations you disagree with.

 

[bfreedma]

https://alpha-audio.net/review/zeven-switches-for-streaming-audio-tested-blind/

Did you even bother to read that link? Uncontrolled testing. No response standards. Insufficient number of trials to be viable. Ratings rather than identification.

Most importantly, they don’t seem to understand what blind testing is trying to accomplish. The only proper goal is to take two pieces of gear in an otherwise unchanged setup and randomly select them for playback. The tester is only responding as to whether they can identify the tow components being tested at a statistically significant level.

What you linked to was a preference test where people rated what they heard on a scale (other than the person who used a +/- rating).

What’s needed is a simple test where an audiophile switch is blind tested against an OTS cheap switch. 10 runs of 10 comparisons each would be enough. If the overall statistical analysis shows the subject can differentiate the boxes 90% of the time, then you will have some really hard evidence that should be followed up on, as perhaps there’s something happening we need to better understand. I’m only asking that you hold yourselves to the same level of rigor than any viable technical analysis must, so please don’t respond with “but that’s hard and time consuming” because you’re right, it is. There’s no “Easy Button” in research, because we learned long ago how incorrect and in some cases, how dangerous conclusions from inadequate testing can be.

Without that, it’s all subjective observations and of no use in supporting claims being made here.

 

[bfreedma]

i'm flattered but sorry you must be confused i dont make the PhoenixNet.

Its just a shame you feel you have the right to wander around the forum shutting down conversations you disagree with.

Your ID states you are a MOT for a manufacturer of audiophile network switches, so you certainly have a financial interest in this conversation.

I find it odd that you state that my asking questions about how a product like yours works constitutes “shutting down conversation”. Do you believe that vendor claims are beyond reproach and that simply asking a vendor to validate their product works as advertised is inappropriate?

As someone with product to sell, wouldn’t you want your customers to see hard data on all of the wonderful things your network gear does that standard gear doesn’t? What could be the downside of producing those facts?

 

[teknorob23]

Your ID states you are a MOT for a manufacturer of audiophile network switches, so you certainly have a financial interest in this conversation.

I find it odd that you state that my asking questions about how a product like yours works constitutes “shutting down conversation”. Do you believe that vendor claims are beyond reproach and that simply asking a vendor to validate their product works as advertised is inappropriate?

As someone with product to sell, wouldn’t you want your customers to see hard data on all of the wonderful things your network gear does that standard gear doesn’t? What could be the downside of producing those facts?

again the thread is about sharing experiences of specific device, so as much as your opinion is valid, surely asserting over and over again when its not relevant to the conversation is just a bit pointless. And dont you find it exhausting?

 

[bfreedma]

again the thread is about sharing experiences of specific device, so as much as your opinion is valid, surely asserting over and over again when its not relevant to the conversation is just a bit pointless. And dont you find it exhausting?

Not as exhausting as a product vendor who won't show any technical specs or testing indicating his product actually does something a $20 router doesn't.

I should really buy one of these switches, do a teardown, and ask the manufacturers of the internal components if the secondary vendor has the right to repurpose them, or if they are just buying cheap OTS product and putting it into new casing without the manufacturers consent.

Now THAT would be interesting...

BTW, if you find me exhausting, why don't you just put me on your Ignore list - problem solved! Surely that's better than attempted censoring.

 

[teknorob23]

Not as exhausting as a product vendor who won't show any technical specs or testing indicating his product actually does something a $20 router doesn't.

I should really buy one of these switches, do a teardown, and ask the manufacturers of the internal components if the secondary vendor has the right to repurpose them, or if they are just buying cheap OTS product and putting it into new casing without the manufacturers consent.

Now THAT would be interesting...

BTW, if you find me exhausting, why don't you just put me on your Ignore list - problem solved! Surely that's better than attempted censoring.

I dont make the PhoenixNet, but i guess if you're interested in buying one you should have a chat with Innuos.

Sadly, because you persist with prosecuting your conspiracy theories on threads i find interesting, its hard to ignore the man shouting about his religion in the corner while your trying to have conversation.