[fatko]

i have bought a Stello DA220 DAC
it comes with a phase selection
0 degree or 180 degree

the sound is better after i chose 180 degree invertion

but ... i really dunno what it is ..

does it really sound better to use Phase 180 degree?
or it is just a theoretical matter?

 

[jefemeister]

I personally have a very difficult time hearing the difference. The theory states that there should be absolutely no difference because it's nothing more than a simple time delay across all frequencies.

It will have an effect that when your speaker cone is "supposed" to be pushing out it is instead being sucked back in. Some have said that this will cause the leading edges (transients) of notes to sound different. There are also those that say it's only audible in a less than ideal acoustic environment since you can alter the rooms' standing waves. You can tell, I don't buy a lot of it.

Especially since you have no way of knowing which phase is the "right" one. The phase can be inverted any number of times in both the recording and playback chains. I'd say leave it on whatever setting sounds good at the time with a certain CD.

There should be some info on this in previous threads. Do a search.

 

[fatko]

Quote:

Originally Posted by jefemeister I personally have a very difficult time hearing the difference. The theory states that there should be absolutely no difference because it's nothing more than a simple time delay across all frequencies. It will have an effect that when your speaker cone is "supposed" to be pushing out it is instead being sucked back in. Some have said that this will cause the leading edges (transients) of notes to sound different. There are also those that say it's only audible in a less than ideal acoustic environment since you can alter the rooms' standing waves. You can tell, I don't buy a lot of it. Especially since you have no way of knowing which phase is the "right" one. The phase can be inverted any number of times in both the recording and playback chains. I'd say leave it on whatever setting sounds good at the time with a certain CD. There should be some info on this in previous threads. Do a search.

i have found some essays on this topic..
but unfortunately i cant understand ..
um..

but i thnk .. it is no harm to turn it on , right?
at least i dun want to turn it back after some comparison in my system ..

 

[clarke68]

Quote:

Originally Posted by fatko but i thnk .. it is no harm to turn it on , right? at least i dun want to turn it back after some comparison in my system ..

You can/should leave it wherever you want that you think sounds better, although technically it should change with different recordings.

Jefemeister was correct...absolute phase varies from recording to recording. In a perfect world, 0 degrees would be the only phase you ever need. However, phase can be reversed at many different stages in the recording process, from microphones being wired improperly to inverting the phase during digital mastering.

Allegedly, incorrect phase reveals itself most in the low end, particularly in the kick drum or more percussive passages on a string bass. That makes sense, because what's actually happening (when the phase is wrong) is that your woofer will pull in when it's supposed to be pushing out, and vice versa.

It also makes sense that incorrect phase would be very difficult to detect using headphones, because the difference between your 'phones transducer moving in or out is almost microscopic.

I have a phase switch on all my DACs...one model doesn't even indicate which position is 0 and which is 180. I play around with them occasionally just for kicks or if I think a certain track has a limpid low end, but for the most part I ignore the feature. The audiophile police haven't caught me yet!

 

[Scrith]

I was able to hear the difference (and make a decision about which phase I preferred) when listening to a very shot piece of a song with some clearly audible drum cymbal hits (where you here the beginning and end very distinctly). I ran my tests by changing the phase inversion in the control panel for my E-Mu sound card (there's a button that lets you toggle phase). I got to the point where I could click it randomly with me eyes closed and tell whether it was inverted or not just from listening to the music.

I did this becauase I had read somewhere that most amps (and, in particular, my old MPX3) inverted the phase of the audio signal. So I ended up running my E-Mu with the phase inversion on (which hopefully meant it was not inverted after passing through the MPX3). Anyway, it sounded better to me this way. The difference is very slight, and is only noticeable on isolated sounds (like you often hear from the drums in some songs). To me, one setting (not inverted, I think) sounds more "natural" than the other.

 

[fatko]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Scrith I was able to hear the difference (and make a decision about which phase I preferred) when listening to a very shot piece of a song with some clearly audible drum cymbal hits (where you here the beginning and end very distinctly). I ran my tests by changing the phase inversion in the control panel for my E-Mu sound card (there's a button that lets you toggle phase). I got to the point where I could click it randomly with me eyes closed and tell whether it was inverted or not just from listening to the music. I did this becauase I had read somewhere that most amps (and, in particular, my old MPX3) inverted the phase of the audio signal. So I ended up running my E-Mu with the phase inversion on (which hopefully meant it was not inverted after passing through the MPX3). Anyway, it sounded better to me this way. The difference is very slight, and is only noticeable on isolated sounds (like you often hear from the drums in some songs). To me, one setting (not inverted, I think) sounds more "natural" than the other.

i have read some explanation on Phase
a guy said for the corrent phase
the sound, esp the human voice, will be more concentrated in the middle

and i tried it repeatedly, it does change the concentration of human voices..

 

[Samuli]

Quote:

Originally Posted by fatko i have read some explanation on Phase a guy said for the corrent phase the sound, esp the human voice, will be more concentrated in the middle and i tried it repeatedly, it does change the concentration of human voices..

Are you sure he wasn't talking about correct phasing on speakers?

 

[clarke68]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Samuli Are you sure he wasn't talking about correct phasing on speakers?

It's the same thing, flipping the phase switch on your DAC does the same as switching the red & black wires on your speakers, it just does it in the digital domain.

 

[Samuli]

Quote:

Originally Posted by clarke68 It's the same thing, flipping the phase switch on your DAC does the same as switching the red & black wires on your speakers, it just does it in the digital domain.

True, I should've made myself more clear. What I meant was that when you swap the cables only in one of the speakers (So that the speakers are in opposite phases) you'll find out that vocals etc. that are mixed in the middle are recessed and blurred in the soundstage. Loss of bass would also occur.

 

[jefemeister]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Samuli True, I should've been make myself more clear. What I meant was that when you swap the cables only in one of the speakers (So that the speakers are in opposite phases) you'll find out that vocals etc. that are mixed in the middle are recessed and blurred in the soundstage. Loss of bass would also occur.

Yep, that's the same principle behind creating a surround-sound effect with 2 speakers. It's just done a lot more carefully that flipping one channel 180 deg. A recording technology called Q-sound (featured on Amused to Death) applies the same principle. Never caught on though.

 

[Samuli]

Yea, I've heard that amused to death sounds incredible in right setup (guy who said this has magnepan MG 3.6). Also, a friend of mine, who happens to own a little studio of his own, found out serious variations in phase when he analyzed a song where is a sound that seems to circle around the room even in 2ch setup.

 

[GoRedwings19]

I have phase selection on my dac. I wonder how it would work with my hp-1's??? THe hp-1's have phase switches on them.

 

[fatko]

Quote:

Originally Posted by GoRedwings19 I have phase selection on my dac. I wonder how it would work with my hp-1's??? THe hp-1's have phase switches on them.

180 degree + 180 degree
it turns to its orginal phase , i guess so

 

[Samuli]

Quote:

Originally Posted by fatko 180 degree + 180 degree it turns to its orginal phase , i guess so

NO! the bits commit suicide because they feel cheated.

 

[chillysalsa]

There was a lengthy discussion over absolute phase, with very interesting comments on the matter. Some amplifiers invert phase, so maybe your amp is inverting phase, and you inverting it a second time brings it back to correct phases - thus why it could sound better to you!