[MacDEF]

Quote:

Originally posted by Audio&Me I don't get why they choose to though. I mean, they can choose what ever they want, but why reduce what you can eat by half or more? Not all live stock are treated like garbage.

Actually, pretty much ALL livestock are treated like garbage. Maybe a few small businesses treat their livestock "better" but they make up probably a tenth or hundredth of a percent of livestock businesses in the world.

I'm a meat eater; I love beef, chicken, fish, turkey, and even pork occasionally. That said, Kubernetes is 100% correct: you can get 100% of your nutrition from a vegetarian and even a vegan, diet; raising animals for food is incredibly inefficient and wastes an amazing amount of resources each year; and vegetarians who eat a balanced diet are MUCH healthier than non-vegetarians who eat a balanced diet, simply because they have less fat, less sodium, less cholesteral, fewer additives, etc.

If you like meat, that's cool with me. But there's no reason to go off on vegetarians, especially if you don't really know much about vegetarianism.

P.S. Yes, a significant portion of the world's population doesn't eat meat, either by choice, or because they simply don't have the resources.

 

[Audio-Me]

If by ethical/moral reasons (unless they truely believe in it, like the hardcore hindu or nuns/muslims with their dress codes, still seems absolutely crazy, shouldn't they live their lives how they want? What if it said in the bible it was a sin to listen to music?), that's going against their nature. Isn't that bad for the body? (You can live off fake stuff, but WHY not just eat the real thing IF they can damn it?) I understand if they don't like the taste though. Don't give me "it's a genetic ****up" ******** either.

 

[Kubernetes]

Why the problem with vegetarians? As long as they're not proselytizing or anything like that (thank god my wife does not), why do you care? More meat for the rest of us!

Quote:

If by ethical/moral reasons (unless they truely believe in it, like the hardcore hindu or nuns/muslims with their dress codes, still seems absolutely crazy, shouldn't they live their lives how they want? What if it said in the bible it was a sin to listen to music?), that's going against their nature. Isn't that bad for the body? I understand if they don't like the taste though. Don't give me "it's a genetic ****up" ******** either.

Well, smoking and drinking is against our nature and bad for us too, but that doesn't stop a lot of us. Same too with blasting tunes via amps and cans at way too loud volumes.

 

[coolvij]

Audio&Me: I really didn't understand that last post of yours....and I don't think I want to.

Let's stick to cans here

 

[Audio-Me]

Because of freaking protesters and ****, they're so annoying, just as bad as them picketers. Animal rights this, animal rights that, stop the circus!

A bunch of them were chasing away customers at a local MacDonalds, then went to rally at Burger King for making a veggie burger. They still cook the damn thing on the same greasy meaty grill...
Sorry coolv, the friendly non nagging vegetarians such as yourself are okay with me.

Well, our food intake effects us biologically more overall than smoking, drinking or listening to music.

Quote:

More meat for the rest of us!

hehe, yeah!

 

[Russ Arcuri]

Quote:

Originally posted by MacDEF ... and vegetarians who eat a balanced diet are MUCH healthier than non-vegetarians who eat a balanced diet, simply because they have less fat, less sodium, less cholesteral, fewer additives, etc.

The operative words above are "who eat a balanced diet." And even they are not adequate. Let me explain.

It is quite difficult to live on a strictly vegetarian diet and still "eat a balanced diet." Most vegetarians I have met actually LOOK unhealthy, but in a different way than most non-vegetarians (who also look unhealthy.) Where the principle visible health problem of non-vegetarians is plumpness, the principle visible health problems of vegetarians are being underweight and gaunt; their eyes often appear sunken. The healthiest-looking 'vegetarians' I've met are those that admit to occasionally eating chicken or fish. "But I don't do that often and I don't eat beef or pork, ever!!"

The reason it is so difficult to eat a truly balanced strict vegetarian diet is that it's not simply a matter of eating the right non-meat foods. For example, you can't eat red beans today and rice tomorrow. They must be eaten together so the partial protiens and amino acids in whole-grain rice and red beans can work together in your body. The same applies to other vegetarian meals -- properly prepared, most nutrients can be obtained from non-meat sources. And those that can't can be obtained from milk, eggs, and other animal-derived supplements.

Vegans have it even harder than vegetarians do. A strict vegan diet excludes all animal products -- not just meat. So eggs, milk, and animal-derived supplements are out. (Side note: The strictest and most informed of vegans won't even shoot traditional photos, since film base is made from gelatin, which you might recall is made from cow bones. So is Jello.)

Vegans run a high risk of vitamin deficiencies, since certain vitamins are rarely found in plants but are readily available in meat and animal-derived supplements. A good example is vitamin B-12. I read an article about a man who was a strict vegetarian for 38 years, always healthy, until one day when he developed a serious medical condition due to a lack of B-12. B-12 leaves the body very slowly, but if it's not replaced eventually the health consequences can be quite serious. There are many other examples.

What I'm getting at here is that it's very difficult to eat a balanced vegetarian or vegan diet. It's not impossible, but truly healthy vegetarians and vegans are, in my experience, rare. It requires more dedication, work, and nutritional knowledge than many 'fad' vegetarians possess. Non-vegetarians can stop at a restaurant, order a salad with grilled chicken, and get healthy doses of many of the nutrients they need. Vegetarians and (especially) vegans have to carefully plan every meal to be sure that they're getting what they need. Those that don't are sure to be lacking something important before long.

This wasn't meant to be a knock on anyone -- it's simply an FYI. I'm an omnivore and will be until the day I die -- probably of cholesterol-hardened arteries. I like steak, chicken, and fish too much to give them up, and I know I don't have the dedication to eat a strict yet healthy vegetarian diet anyway.

 

[Russ Arcuri]

Quote:

Originally posted by Audio&Me Well, our food intake effects us biologically more overall than smoking, drinking or listening to music.

Not quite. You can kill yourself in less than a couple hours with a bottle of Jack Daniel's or Stoly. I've never heard of somebody being found dead after a night of heavy hot-dog eating (unless they choked on it, but you get the point, yes?)

 

[dngl]

It isn't hard at all to get a balanced vegetarian diet. Most vegetarians are just not educated enough to know what to eat. I bench more than my body weight and run a mile in 5:30; I'm healthy.

Audio&Me- it's pretty hard to argue that killing something isn't "treating it badly". I know that you are referring to the pre-murder portion of livestock's lives, but If I killed my dog/cats today, I would still be treating it badly whether or not I treated it nicely beforehand. Murder is murder. I can understand subsistence hunting, but it is cheap and easy (with some discipline) to live healthily sans meat.

 

[DanG]

Humph -- it was interesting to see this post go from a funny photo-op to a discussion of how you can live without meat.

My personal problem is one you could call of near-masochism. I absolutely love fine foods from fine restaurants, especially those containing meat. However, somewhere near the end of last summer, I began observing more and more Jewish laws.

Because of that, I cannot eat pork or crawfish at all. I never much liked pork but I loved shrimps. No big deal there in terms of health, though. I also couldn't eat dairy products after meat (for several hours).

Then I decided to go all the way (silly me, but at least it makes me feel good about myself.

LOL). This means that I cannot eat meat that is not prepared in a kosher way and prepared in a kosher kitchen -- aside from fish, which are always considered kosher. Because of this, and because my college does not accomodate observers of Jewish or Muslim dietary laws, I rarely get to eat meat. But I still have to eat in the same dining halls, and it kills me to see people eating beef and chicken when I'm stuck with tuna-fish sandwiches, salads, and rice-and-beans.

After all that complaining and whining, I still have it much easier than vegetarians and especially vegans. I guess I should read this whole damn thread to find out just why you guys do it, but I find it amazing that you vegetarians can go without meat especially without a religious reason to do so.

 

[coolvij]

I've got a decent amount of self-control.....and, frankly, I remember when I ate meat. It tasted good. So....if you're in it for the taste, meat all the way!

Audio&Me: I dislike anyone who nags.......about anything. Man, those people that nag......they are soo.....nagging....and....that really annoys me.....hey....you know what? I HATE PEOPLE WHO NAG! THEY NEVER STOP WHINING AND MOANING! I wish those people who nagged.....would just shut up. I mean, don't we all get it? Nagging is dumb......duh.....geez...........

Jon: nice mile.......

 

[Russ Arcuri]

Quote:

Originally posted by Jon Beilin It isn't hard at all to get a balanced vegetarian diet. Most vegetarians are just not educated enough to know what to eat.

Which is exactly what I meant when I referred to the difference between a dedicated, educated vegetarian and a "fad" vegetarian, or one who eats poultry or fish every once in a while. You say it's "easy" because you took the time and made the effort to learn what to eat. I can tell you that most of the vegetarians I've met do NOT look healthy.

You know, it just occurred to me that there's one exception -- a guy I work with is very healthy looking, and he's a vegetarian. But he's definitely well-educated on nutrition.

Once again, I'm not knocking vegetarians. I'm just pointing out that it's not as easy to do as simply saying, "I'm not eating meat anymore."

 

[zowie]

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Originally posted by Jon Beilin Murder is murder. I can understand subsistence hunting, [. . .]

But killing is not necessarily murder.

 

[fredpb]

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Originally posted by ai0tron That second image is one of the WORST airbrushing jobs I have ever seen. I could have done better when I was in high school. Very sad.

The airbrush artist apparently drooled all over the picture.
I know I have to clean my keyboard now...

 

[redshifter]

yeah, i look at jon's pic and keep expecting him to say "it puts the lotion on its body..."

 

[citroeniste]

You mean a college in MA doesn't accomodate Jews who keep kosher or Muslims who only eat halal? Wow. That's really scary to me. So scary as to be counter to the ideals of higher education, in fact. At the very least, you should be able to get an exemption from having to pay for the dining hall if the school is not willing to meet the dietary needs of large minorities of its student body.

I guess my view is warped by the fact that I went to a college with a massively Jewish student body, and a firm commitment to diversity from the top down. Getting kosher or halal food was never a problem. Dealing with the plethora of whiny JAP's in their BCBG capri pants with Kate Spade bags on their arms did get bit old after a while, though.
(No offense intended to non-princessy female Jewish-Americans out there.)

(As a sidenote: I try to eat only seafood or halal meat. If halal's not available, but kosher is, that's the next best thing. Meat just plain tastes better when the blood's drained out of the animal upon slaughter.)

Quote:

Originally posted by DanG Because of this, and because my college does not accomodate observers of Jewish or Muslim dietary laws, I rarely get to eat meat. But I still have to eat in the same dining halls, and it kills me to see people eating beef and chicken when I'm stuck with tuna-fish sandwiches, salads, and rice-and-beans.[/B]