[aeberbach]

Quote:

divided on whether or not audiophilia is really dependent upon science or not

At first it is, when everything is coming together - some choices are just obvious, like exchanging a consumer grade source for a good one. You have to get up to a basic level before your improvements become a matter of personal faith. That point is different for everyone, but I think it happens when your system is already about as good as it can be. Then from a desire to continue increasing the quality of the sound you hear, you can convince yourself that making a change has resulted in an improvement where they may be no difference at all! The desire to still have something to do is also a factor, how annoying to think that there might be nothing to do but listen until someone actually invents something new! There's nothing really deluded or crazy about believing in the hi-fi fairies, it's just a continuation of the desires that bring someone to be involved in this hobby in the first place.

There could be a third motive, greed. This last one is probably what makes charlatans try to sell pieces of amber to be arranged around the top of the CD player. People want to believe in that kind of stuff, and they want to pay for it too. If you're prepared to be dishonest you can really clean up in this business... Luckily we're all users here, even the ones who sell stuff, and I don't think this applies to anyone on head-fi.

I'm speaking from personal experience with PCs and relating that to headphones. So far I'm still making real improvements - the K1000 cans, most notably and recently. But I know I've wasted a lot of time and money on the latest heatsink or other PC tweak for no improvement other than my own satisfaction with my most important tool.

 

[Joe Bloggs]

Quote:

ANYONE WHO DOESNT AGREE JUST ISNT AN ENGINEER AND IS ONLY RIDICULING ME BECAUSE THEY DONT UNDERSTAND!!!

Show me where I said anything to this effect.

 

[ai0tron]

YOu didnt say anything to that effect.

Someone else said something to that effect.

 

[ai0tron]

uh...

Even if it were possible at this very moment to analyze a component with a machine and predict exactly how it will sound only a small fraction of us would know how to use such a machine much less actually own one. In stereophile they remark all the time about how the listeners viewpoint on the sound of the system didn't really match up with the measurements taken. Because uh, like everyone, they are looking at measurements then kind of educated guessing.

Gee, wonder why. And these measurements are generally taken from the POV of the human ear...

It's distinctly more impossible to design a product to sound exactly a certain way just by running electrical current through it.

If you think you can do it FINE. DO IT. But if it were the case I don't see why a program wouldn't have been written that simulates electrical current and designs amps with very specific qualities that cost a mere $20 or less.

If it could be systemetized as much as you all claim, than why aren't computers making the perfect amps?? HUH?? WHY?

They aren't, and until measurements are better understood they won't. And when they do, then yes I will agree with you.

It is true that any amp is going to be defined by it's electrical properties, this is obvious, but measuring instruments aren't always sensitive enough or don't always take into account the right variables.

The point is, well I don't know.

 

[pedxing]

I have talked to a lot of people in the EE field and they don't know much how audio equipment works either. It must be a very specialized field and the design of the equipment might be more art than science at the present.

Here is an example of the lack of understanding of audio equipment among even highly educated people: I met a few electrical engineers in my life time who claimed that they can make the best sounding speaker in the world for like $200. They argue that all speaker manufacturers around the world buy their drivers from a handful of companies. Then they planned on buying some wooden boards and nails and build a simple box cabinet for the drivers. I started asking them questions about the type of wood they would buy and how to control the acoustics of the cabinet (ie: filling it with sand). They had no idea what I was talking about. I am not saying these people are stupid, its just that they never knew that these problems existed. After having these types of discussions, I actually believed I helped them understand why people go out and blow big bucks on audio equipment.

 

[dvw]

One of the problems in audio is lack of research. The psychoacoustic effect of sound is not "well" understood.

Good engineering requires certain objective specifiaction or it's impossible to design equipment. These objectives are adaquate or not is a different story.

Example; I used to work on FETron, a solid state vaccum tube replacement for the phone company. I did all the measurement, designed the device and made a prototype. The prototype worked but the production units didn't. This is because I missed the output impedance measurement and the production units used a different material.

Sounds is more complicated because some people can't even agree on what sound sounds like. In the 70s, Bob Carver designed a solid state amplifier to sounds like a reference tube amp. Stereophile editors agreed it sounds the same. But when production units came out they can't agree on the sound. Blind test resuilt was inconclusive.

Scentific discussion is really needed to enable improvement or we'll be using little rainbow sticker on our equipment to make sound sounds better.

 

[slindeman]

Quote:

why people go out and blow big bucks on audio equipment

I have no problem with the big bucks as long as a reasonable amount of them go into the research, design, testing, and manufacture of the equipment, and not into misleading marketing or stratospheric margins. I think most heapdhones and headphone amps are quite reasonably priced, it's when you get to some of the exotic cables and sources that you have to wonder. I really appreciate that Meier Audio and Headroom divulge as much information as they do about their products. I still don't believe you need $1000 to unleash the glory of the HD600 though.

Re: Science

Predictions of how components will mesh based on equations and such have helped me, just as reviews of others have helped me narrow down choices. A tube amp with low current capability will clip with Grados. Such a science derived fact can help your buying decision just as much as someone reviewing the combination and saying that it clips. Knowing that the Corda had a good power supply for good voltage swing, and enough current capability for low impedance headphones (like Grados) helped influence me to purchase it since at the time I had Grados and was buying the HD600. While our "ears" are certainly the final word, it is difficult to audition every combination possible before making a decision, and relying on both reviews and science can be beneficial in guiding a purchase.

 

[dngl]

Joe- I for one enjoy your posts because I always learn something no matter whether you are right or wrong. As with you, I would like to have some rationale as to why things work the way they do.

 

[Dusty Chalk]

Quote:

Originally posted by ai0tron If you think you can do it FINE. DO IT. But if it were the case I don't see why a program wouldn't have been written ...

He's not saying he knows, he's saying he does not understand why people react the way they do when he just asks the questions. He wants to know why, that's all. When you're as far off from understanding (I won't use Joe as an example, as this one is just as good: ) as I am, sometimes it's hard to formulate the questions. I, too, certainly do not appreciate the atmosphere generated by the likes of A&M on that one last thread just because Joe was trying to understand things.

I mean, when you don't understand something, you can do one of three things: you can throw your hands up in the air and say, "I don't understand it, but it must be false"; you can throw your hands up in the air and say, "I don't understand it, but it must be true"; or you can try to understand it.

I have to admit, it sometimes seems like such a long distance from ignorance to knowledge that it's not worth the journey (not in general, but on specific things, like speaker design), but you ain't never gonna get there if you never start a-walkin'.

 

[ai0tron]

Ok.

Check this out... My grandfather taught himself electronics to the point that he was given an honorary degree and a position at lockhead martin... After 50+ years of electronics experience he is currently designing tube amps. He has masses of accumulated knowledge and skill and he puts it all into tube amps. Why?? Because unlike the rest of the stuff he has done, complex as it is, tube amps represent a challenge that is not necessarily solved by breaking out the calculator and oscilliscope. It's more of a test of one ingenuity and creativity.

So I would say that high end amps are more the product of ingenuity and creativity than most other electronic disciplines. So perhaps, simply in looking at it as a more than just the product of robotic assembly maybe you can see why some amps would cost more than others.

Now the question is can circuit design be transcendent?

 

[Dusty Chalk]

But how did your grandfather get there? By asking questions, I'm sure... He may not "know", in a repeatable, empirical, measurable sense, but he still has knowledge.

 

[setmenu]

aiOtron says 'can circuit design become trancendant?'
I supppose[most] designers are hoping their designs will trancend
the sum of their parts in performance,after all if there was not
that quest for perfection[however subjective] design would remain static.[marketing aside]
But...Trancendant??

It often interests me to imagine how other peoples minds work,
as in I visualise things/concepts ,difficult enough to explain
this let alone visualise a mind that is not visual in it's nature.[if there are such minds in reality???anyone?]

This visualisation can be interesting and frustrating when trying
to get your head round various science subjects.
for instance those math geniuses who can do incredible
multi digit mental calculations in a few seconds

whats going on there?
My visual mind makes number crunching slow.

But if I can make a dynamic visual abstract in my head of something I am half way to winning.

For instance designing my transducers.
These are mechanical devices which move to a given set of rules.
I hear,see,imagine whats going on and make changes while
my approach is probably not the most efficient it is close
to being an artistic thing.[with rigorous rules for basic function]

I am now investigating amp design.
This is interesting thus far because at present my mental model
is sketchy and undeveloped,I cannot see physically what is going
on. Time will tell on that one.

So at present if I built an amp and it ,A worked properly,B sounded good, for me that would have trancended my
expectations as did the results with my transducer.

Of course these things are relative to skill/experience and expectations.

All I can do is salute Farrady and his like, those who made
the wonders of modern day electronics possible.

Sorry for the ramble kind readers

]



Setmenu[or is that Seymenu Joe

]

 

[Audio-Me]

Elitism my ass. No need to point fingers, he brought this "atomosphere" on himself by making conclusions without any real observations.

I'm sorry if I made you feel uncomfortable, don't take unimportant comments so personal.

Take measurements all you want, audio is not a standardized science, all that data derived by these "gizmos" has nothing to do with our perception of quality. Also, what use is measuring audio more precisely if we can't discern it ourselves?

What I don't like is this "oh you're wasting your money where as I tweak my stuff to sound just as good as yours if not better" nonsense. Whiney attitudes offer nothing but nuisance in discussions.

If you still don't get my point, here's my reasoning. Not everyone's a freaking scientist. I'll leave all this techie **** to the people who actually make these products. Let them work their magic for christ sakes. I think not with blind logic, but with common sense. If I don't get something, I don't look for excuses. I'll either get it or I won't, and leave it at that.
Pop in disc, enjoy music... Not everything has to be so damn complicated.

I'd like to add that people love HD600 and MG Head because they sound freaking awesome. Why anyone feels the need to question that is lame. Anything to make themselves feel better I guess, however pathetic it may be...

 

[Dusty Chalk]

You know, you go back and forth quite a bit. You must be a great dancer.

For example, I completely agree with this paragraph here:
Quote:

Originally posted by Audio&Me If you still don't get my point, here's my reasoning. Not everyone's a freaking scientist. I'll leave all this techie **** to the people who actually make these products. Let them work their magic for christ sakes. I think not with blind logic, but with common sense. If I don't get something, I don't look for excuses. I'll either get it or I won't, and leave it at that.

That's fine. Not everything is known, yet, at this point. L, for that matter, not everything is going to be knowable in our lifetimes. But what about that part that I bolded? Who are these so-called people? Can't possibly be anyone on this forum, nor anyone you know, could it? Maybe it's not ever going to be anyone you know now, either, is it? How are they ever going to possibly get there unless they ask questions? If you don't know, or don't care to (I don't either, in many cases), THEN DON'T READ THE FREAKIN' THREADS. And more importantly, DON'T CRAP ON THEM. Quote:

Take measurements all you want, audio is not a standardized science, all that data derived by these "gizmos" has nothing to do with our perception of quality. Also, what use is measuring audio more precisely if we can't discern it ourselves?

Look, just because we haven't yet figured out what sounds good, and applied sience to it and/or art to it, does not mean we never will. Just because it is not known yet does not mean that it will never be known. I will be the first to admit that we are far from knowing everything, as a society. Specifically applied to audio, I have no problem with someone else doing the work. Quote:

Whiney attitudes offer nothing but nuisance in discussions.

So close, and yet, so far. Quote:

I'd like to add that people love HD600 and MG Head because they sound freaking awesome. Why anyone feels the need to question that is lame.

This would be one of those "unimportant comments" to which you refer earlier, wouldn't it?

Yes, at this point I am ragging on you. But when you use words like "whine" and "pathetic", you're asking for it.

 

[Audio-Me]

I'd like to add "rant" and "pointless replies". Would you like to annoy, I mean rag on me some more?