[Joe Bloggs]

Where is the energy to synthesize gasoline going to come from?

 

[DanT]

Here something
http://www.floatingplanet.net/planet...es/000380.html

They estimate that it would take a solar panel of 54x54 miles to provide the equivalent of all the energy consumsion of the US. You just need to find a good spot in the desert to install it.

 

[wallijonn]

Quote:

Originally posted by Joe Bloggs Where is the energy to synthesize gasoline going to come from?

From chemical reactions of existing manufacturing processes; just as the manufacturing of steel creates hydrogen (I believe) that is reclaimed as a component to be used in it's manufacture.

The Wankel engine is very inefficent, but what if it could use another fuel?

For all we know, now that corn fruitose is under scrutney for making Americans obese, the sugars will be converted to alcohol (fermentation) and oil (corn oil) and burned as a fuel.

There was a car which ran on vegetable oil or grease (cooked vegetable oil).

So the oil companies will buy up most of the land then rotate crops to produce oils, like peanut coil, corn oil, orange oil, lemon oil, tree oil, etc. mix them all together, add an accelerant, and produce a product which will become a standard fuel.

Who knows. maybe someday most Americans will be riding 100 mpg motorbikes instead of 20 mpg cars. That alone will cause less gaoline consumption.

But chances are that we will be using hydrogen cells before we go without.

 

[Joe Bloggs]

Quote:

Originally posted by DanT Here something http://www.floatingplanet.net/planet...es/000380.html They estimate that it would take a solar panel of 54x54 miles to provide the equivalent of all the energy consumsion of the US. You just need to find a good spot in the desert to install it.

That's all well and good, but what about the energy used in making fertilizers, pesticides, running cars, etc.? I seem to remember reading somewhere on the site that if all energy costs are taken into account the world energy budget cannot be satisfied even if you cover the whole earth in solar panels...

 

[Born2bwire]

The Coal Question is a book by Stanley Jevons in 1865 that predicts the collapse of England's economic progress and power due to the depletion of coal reserves. I haven't read the book myself but it proves an interesting economic point. In many ways the situation is ironic because lately the problem with England is that the large amounts of coal available on the market have forced prices extremely low. The view of oil reserves is no different than the historical problems with coal, wood, copper, flint, etc. As we've progressed throughout history, we have become dependent on an increasingly longer list of resources, but we haven't hit a point where we have been unable to progress. The reason being is that we don't use flint anymore for tools, we have alternatives just as we have alternatives to coal. As long as we keep pace with ourselves then we shouldn't be overly worried. Nuclear energy, whether fission or fusion, and hydrogen represent bright alternatives to the use of oil or coal. We could also increase the use of synthetics that are provided through renewable resources. The main driving force behind this is economics. At this point it is still economically viable to be dependent on fossil fuels. The costs to use alternatives is too high but once the oil reserves start to decrease then we'll see the real motivating factor kicking in. There are programs that are looking into alternatives: nuclear energy, hydrogen, ethanol, etc. I remember one of my friend's dads worked at a facility in New Zealand that refined gasoline from hydrogen gas (Or it might be natural gas, either way the point is that we've been looking into alternatives for decades but we haven't found one that can compete economically with oil). All the talk of running out of oil and the impending energy crisis are not unproductive as they are a forseeable future. But I do not believe it will occur because people today have to forsight to research beyond oil but it won't take off all of a sudden.

 

[Elec]

Quote:

Originally posted by Born2bwire The Coal Question is a book by Stanley Jevons in 1865 that predicts the collapse of England's economic progress and power due to the depletion of coal reserves. I haven't read the book myself but it proves an interesting economic point. In many ways the situation is ironic because lately the problem with England is that the large amounts of coal available on the market have forced prices extremely low. The view of oil reserves is no different than the historical problems with coal, wood, copper, flint, etc. As we've progressed throughout history, we have become dependent on an increasingly longer list of resources, but we haven't hit a point where we have been unable to progress. The reason being is that we don't use flint anymore for tools, we have alternatives just as we have alternatives to coal. As long as we keep pace with ourselves then we shouldn't be overly worried. Nuclear energy, whether fission or fusion, and hydrogen represent bright alternatives to the use of oil or coal. We could also increase the use of synthetics that are provided through renewable resources. The main driving force behind this is economics. At this point it is still economically viable to be dependent on fossil fuels. The costs to use alternatives is too high but once the oil reserves start to decrease then we'll see the real motivating factor kicking in. There are programs that are looking into alternatives: nuclear energy, hydrogen, ethanol, etc. I remember one of my friend's dads worked at a facility in New Zealand that refined gasoline from hydrogen gas (Or it might be natural gas, either way the point is that we've been looking into alternatives for decades but we haven't found one that can compete economically with oil). All the talk of running out of oil and the impending energy crisis are not unproductive as they are a forseeable future. But I do not believe it will occur because people today have to forsight to research beyond oil but it won't take off all of a sudden.

I generally agree with you. The issue isn't fossil fuels, it's simply ENERGY, and the reason our energy still comes from fossil fuels is economic. There is still a ton of money to be made in oil, and the infrastructure is in place, so there's little sense in going with anything else at this time. As the supply of oil dwindles and the price goes up, there will be a greater push to develop alternative sources of energy. My best friend's dad works at Argonne National Labs in alternative fuels. Every few months he has to fly to Washington to beg for more money. This will clearly not be the case once the end is in sight for oil. There's no money to be made now in alternative energy, so there's been little incentive for work to be done in this direction. Eventually it will become profitable to move to a hydrogen or solar economy and capitalism will kick in to make this stuff a reality. Some of our processes suck, but look at the power and fuel economy of some of the original ICEs. Time and money will yield improvements. The conspiracy theorist in me wants to say "They've probably already GOT a solution but they're withholding it until the oil cash cow is dead." That may or may not be true but really, oil is so powerful and political with so much money at stake that it is conceivable that progress on alternative fuel technologies is being slowed intentionally. We may well run out of oil, but I seriously doubt we'll run out of energy. There are many options waiting to be explored and exploited between now and then.

 

[Lando]

Well, here's another problem that's in the process of being solved. BBC News: Scientists unveil plastic plants. Biodegradable and suitable for commerical use!

 

[wallijonn]

http://www.rherald.com/news/2003/0320/People/p03.html

 

[Jeff Guidry]

Quote:

Originally posted by setmenu Not at all.. Do you not agree that humans who live in the affluent parts of the world seem to have become highly domesticated animals?

So what does this have to do with the oil supply running out?

Quote:

Originally posted by setmenu people in large society's can become very divorced from the basics of survival, when their lives are shielded from such reality by the sophisticated material facades of modern life.

So what does this have to do with the oil supply running out?

Quote:

Originally posted by setmenu I do not think any animal would choose a hard life if the choice were possible. A pet animal without restriction can easily over consume. I think most life forms would consume, grow fat and breed when times are good. In prolonged good times those little used survival skill would atrophy.

So what does this have to do with the oil supply running out?


Quote:

Originally posted by setmenu Humans do seem at times a bit like those 'fat pets' when they are left unattended with an overflowing food bowl.

So what does this have to do with the oil supply running out?

Quote:

Originally posted by setmenu Our evolution into such a capable creature did at least try to include safety mechanisms such as religious belief with it's moral codes, as some attempt to moderate our instinctive but potentially destructive [to the species] behavior.

So what does this have to do with the oil supply running out?

Quote:

Originally posted by setmenu So it does seem that our intellects are enslaved, not by corporations but by our instincts.

So what does this have to do with the oil supply running out?


Quote:

Originally posted by setmenu I hope humanity can rise above itself , but I fear just like every other organism it will not move untill kicked

Quote:

Originally posted by braillediver What a CROCK a shi….

 

[Jeff Guidry]

Quote:

Originally posted by DanT Here something http://www.floatingplanet.net/planet...es/000380.html They estimate that it would take a solar panel of 54x54 miles to provide the equivalent of all the energy consumsion of the US. You just need to find a good spot in the desert to install it.

And the several trillion dollars to make one. Photovoltaics are very pricy energy sources...

 

[setmenu]

Quote:

Originally posted by Jeff Guidry So what does this have to do with the oil supply running out? So what does this have to do with the oil supply running out? So what does this have to do with the oil supply running out? So what does this have to do with the oil supply running out? So what does this have to do with the oil supply running out? So what does this have to do with the oil supply running out?

Humankind's nature has everything to do with the oil supply
running out.

Humankind's nature has everything to do with preservation of
resources.

For example I believe the USA still has the highest energy consumption per head of anywhere the world?

Could it be that an organism with access to abundant resources
will consume them,grow strong and potentially find itself in a
dominant position?
This does seem to happen elsewhere in nature...

Such use of resources can even be found in ones own home.
Empty spaces do have a habit of filling up..

Continous growth is a major driving force.

It is easy to downsize if you have no choice!
Most people do not find it so easy when faced with apparent
abundance.

This is the situation we find our selves in with energy resources.
I am sure you have heard the strong nations calling for restraint
from developing ones.
But those strong nations seem loathe to make any apparent
serious effort to downsize their own consumption of resources.
And for good reason.
Besides obvious economic, there are more subtle reasons for
wishing to maintain 'conspicuous' consumption.
Status.
However distasteful some people may find it, at some level the
basic primate behavior of the dominant animal is still at work
here.
One just has to observe.

Humans do seem to do remarkably well despite those primal
urges..well domesticated on the whole eh?


The fact is, as things stand at present there is no equal replacement to fossil fuel available!
Fusion power is still a dream.

Existing resources need using more prudently and new ones
developing further.

The human animal really needs to get a grip on it's own nature
and make some fundamental changes.
Perhaps the only real engine for these changes will come from
stripping away the old to enable the new to flourish.

Whilst the prospect of massively more suffering on a global
scale fills me with dread, I can envision the arising of
a fundamentally reformed creature.

A truly modern human.



Cheers

Setmenu

 

[wallijonn]

Setmenu,

As far as America goes, massive consumption equals lower prices. It's spupply and demand. We are not as crowded as Europe.

If coal prices are so low in Britain, perhaps extracting gas from coal can be instituted. But it's a dirtier process. Is there diesel emision standards in Europe?

How many cars in Japan? Probably as many as are in NYC or LA.

Our prices are lower because we are not taxed like other countries and because we have the infrastructure already in place.

Underdeveloped countries have something which we do not have - underdeveloped land. You can't cry global warming and at the same time cut down all the forests of the world. (Yeah, it's a crock, but it's the line we're given. Just look at how gold is "harvested" in Brazil).

When we "run out" it will become more viable and feasible to do deeper drilling. Rigs will then encircle whole continents.

I wouldn't worry about it. Worry about the comet or meteror that will extinguish life on this planet. New oil will then be "manufactured". The people problem will be iradicated at the same time.

 

[dohminator]

Quote:

Originally posted by DanT Here something http://www.floatingplanet.net/planet...es/000380.html They estimate that it would take a solar panel of 54x54 miles to provide the equivalent of all the energy consumsion of the US. You just need to find a good spot in the desert to install it.

Nevada

 

[Joe Bloggs]

Quote:

Originally posted by Jeff Guidry Yawn. More anti-corporate paranoia. Big Brother will parse out resources to make sure everyone is equal, and enslaved.

What did THIS have to do with the oil supply running out?

Garbage in, garbage out.

 

[wallijonn]

A 54m x 54m solar panel is unfeasible due to transmission line losses.

Parts of Wyoming are very windy, so why not put up windmills? And have solar panels right next to them for when it is sunny and the wind doesn't blow? Why not make solar panel windmill blades?

But what I really would like is more residential use of solar panels AND windmills. But it would take massive manufacturing to bring the prices down.

As to cars, I have always felt that solar panels should be installed on car tops to replenish the batteries. Here in AZ it is sunny 30 out of 31 days a month. Having driven electric busses I can tell you that it is slow to take off. Perhaps a hydrogen fuel / electric hybrid will work better - but electrical power generating mechanisms are very unreliable.