[Bxtreme]

After countless hours of research and perusing Head-Fi, I decided I should probably post my dilemma and get some advice
 
It seems like there aren't many threads about making a custom surround sound configuration for the PC.
 
Background
I'm a software developer that uses his computer for programming, listening to music (some of which is bass heavy) and gaming. I am trying to achieve an audio system that is fun to listen to, but has positional accuracy for gaming. This is very important to me.
 
Currently using a Sound Blaster Omni + Schiit stack + AKG 712 Pro's for serious gaming. This gear provides me with really good positional accuracy and sound stage which is perfect for the games I play (I mostly play action RPG's, FPS's and occasional fighting games).
 
I also use a Klipsch ProMedia 2.1 system when I don't have my headphones on.
 
Problem
My only issue with the setup (despite how comfortable people claim the K712's to be) is that I get fidgety when wearing these headphones for too long. I considered getting different pairs to try out, but there are some other considerations. Sometimes I just want to sit down and have some speakers blast. I find myself getting up now an then to do something around the office, but still wanting to hear my current song without having to switch my audio output.
 
For arcade fighting games,the bass response of a speaker system is just awesome when someone gets slammed against the ground or for the super crazy ultimate attacks!. It's a feeling that is difficult, if not, impossible to emulate on headphone (the thump of the woofer that is).
 
What I'm thinking
 
Powered Speaker
At first I researched some powered speakers, Audio engine A5+'s in particular. It will be a little costly, but I could technically set up a 5.1 system with these (obviously picking a separate center and sub). I could hook these up to analogue output on a soundcard. My issue with this is:
                1) Each pair of speakers have their own volume control. Seems like a pain to make sure all the speakers are set to the same volume. Maybe one of the gain knobs gets moved accidentally (not sure how) and throws things off until I realize it. That would be annoying!
                2) Power cords. Oh the power cords! Just seems ridiculous to have so many separately powered speakers.
                3) I heard that some powered speakers (not sure if this happens with A5's being fed with analogue signal) tend to play white noise when no signal is being sent.
 
Passive Speakers
I kicked around the idea of powered speakers for a while, and then I started thinking about another approach - using passive speakers. Here are my problems with using a receiver to power passive speakers:

• I am limited to a 5.1 speaker with optical. If I want 7.1, I would need to do this via hdmi from my graphics card. The issue with this is the passthrough. My new monitor will accept a 4k image resolution at 144hz (using g-sync technology). This currently won't work through a receiver.
• With this setup, I won't have the ability to swap the sound processing unit. The receiver will do the sound processing and signal conversion. A modular setup will allow me to future proof my system, at least a bit longer than joining my video / audio.

 
A Crazy Idea
This is the current plan I wanted to vet through you guys, unless one of the prior setups makes more sense with some tweaks.
 
Using an Asus Xonar U7, I can get up to 7.1 surround sound via analogue output. This external soundcard is capable of high fidelity output (192kHz/24-bit on all 7 channels) along with 114dB SNR. I figure using a 5.1 or 7.1 speaker setup, the surround virtualization would be minimal, since each sound channel would have it's own speaker. With the case of 7.1 (if I chose to go that route), the Dolby Home Theater v4 virtualization on the Xonar U7 can mix the audio signal so it is expanded to full 7.1. I would likely turn off all the other processing junk it has. The goal hear is for great sound with just enough processing for great positional audio.
 
Emotiva Audio A-700 BasX 7-channel Power Amplifier - This bad boy should power most small bookshelf speakers I throw it's way with nice clean amplification. I'll eventually add a raspberry pie to provide a signal to the amp trigger so it can automatically turn on / off when my computer does.
 
Lastly, I was considering the Wharfedale Diamond 220's (and 220C for center channel). Haven't decided on subwoofer yet.
 
I really like that I can customize each component in this setup versus having some crappy surround sound PC speakers (like the Logitech and Creative speaker systems).
 
Questions

1. Are there are obvious issues with this setup?
2. Would anyone suggest a better 7.1 external or internal sound card? I know some people like the virtualization on Creative products, but keep in mind that won't matter much with a 7.1 speaker configuration.
3. Since the Diamond 220 speakers will be in close proximity to me (between 1.5 and 3 feet), will the setup sound terrible? I realize that near-field speakers are designed in such a way that having them set up close to the listener is not an issue. Since the 220's aren't near-field, I'm worried about the sound.

 
FYI - the desk will be custom made, so I'm not too worried about having enough room for bookshelf speakers, unless they are enormous. So feel free to suggest another speaker.
 
Any advice on the matter would be useful, because honestly I'm shocked that more people aren't talking about this. Once I start building this system, I'll be sure to post the details!

 

[PurpleAngel]

Do you have a budget?
 
I like using powered monitors (for a 2.0 setup), but if your want a 5.1 or 7.1 setup and like audio quality and have a decent budget, might as well go with a modern A/V receiver and passive speakers.
I'm not the expert, but I'm not sure you going to find much real world improvement going with a 7.1, over a 5.1.
If you had a large room and needed to fill it with audio, then 7.1 makes sense.
Or if you had to use smaller speakers (smaller then normal), then maybe 7.1 makes sense.
 
I just check a manual for a modem A/V receiver (Yamaha), you can set the HDMI video processing for pass thru,
So I'm assuming you will get your 4K graphics on the monitor.

 

[Bxtreme]

Hi PurpleAngel,

Around 1200 maybe or 1400.

The issue with the receiver I mentioned is passing through 4k. Receiver can't pass more than 60hz I believe with 4k. The monitor will be able to support 4k at 144hz.

I'll probably start with 5.1 as you've suggested. My only thought about 7.1 is hearing something that is to the side of me. But the only way that will happen is probably through surround virtualization. So 5.1, I agree, is probably better to start with.

 

[PurpleAngel]

Hi PurpleAngel,
Around 1200 maybe or 1400.
The issue with the receiver I mentioned is passing through 4k. Receiver can't pass more than 60hz I believe with 4k. The monitor will be able to support 4k at 144hz.
I'll probably start with 5.1 as you've suggested. My only thought about 7.1 is hearing something that is to the side of me. But the only way that will happen is probably through surround virtualization. So 5.1, I agree, is probably better to start with.

 
Ok, so I guess HDMI to a receiver is not an option.
S/PDIF (optical/coaxial) can pass up to 6-channels (5.1) of compressed digital audio, maxing out at 24-bit/48K.
I'm going to guess that gaming in general, does not take advantage of audio above 48K.
 
Here is a Yamaha RX-A750 A/V receiver (refurb) for $370.
http://www.accessories4less.com/make-a-store/item/yamrxa750bl/yamaha-rx-a750-7.2-ch-x-90-watts-a/v-receiver-like-rx-v679/1.html
Technically it may have more features then your current needs, but I think it's something you will be able to use in the future with something like a big screen TV.
 
You could then spend the rest of your audio budget for speakers.

 

[Bxtreme]

Interesting. I'll check it out in more depth when I get home. So two questions regarding your suggestions.

1. Is there a reason you would suggest the receiver to handle the audio processing vs the Xonar U7? Typically these sound cards have semi useful features for PC audio.
2. What would you suggest for speakers? Would the 220's fit the bill for this system? Or do I need something considered "near-field"?

 

[PurpleAngel]

Interesting. I'll check it out in more depth when I get home. So two questions regarding your suggestions.

1. Is there a reason you would suggest the receiver to handle the audio processing vs the Xonar U7? Typically these sound cards have semi useful features for PC audio.
2. What would you suggest for speakers? Would the 220's fit the bill for this system? Or do I need something considered "near-field"?

 
If your PC source (game or movie) is output 5.1 audio and your using 5.1 speakers, the sound card and receiver is really not doing any "audio processing".
If you using a Creative Omni or Xonar U7 (or other sound card), to send digital 5.1 audio, to the receiver, all the sound card is really doing is acting like a transport, for the audio.
If a receiver takes in 5.1 audio and outputs it to 5.1 speaker setup, it not really doing and sort of audio processing.
 
If your changing 5.1 audio into 7.1 or 7.1 into 5.1, not sure there is a lot of audio processing going on.
 
To me audio processing is when something like a DSP (Digital Signal Processor) gets involved with changing the audio.
Like when a computer's (5.1 or 7.1) audio source (game or movie), needs to be changed from a 6 (or 8) channel to 2-channel processed headphone surround sound.
Or when a 2-channel music audio is feed into a receiver and the receiver expands it's output thru to 5.1 or 7.1 speakers.
 
S/PDIF (optical or coaxial) can pass 2-channel of PCM (un-compressed) audio in 24-bit/96K or 24-bit/192K
So you can buy hi-res (96K or 192K) music audio, then send it thru S/PDIF, to a receiver and the receiver can expand it to 5.1 or 7.1 speakers.
 
Check out the websites AVSforum and AVforum, they should be able to point you good deals on speakers.

 

[Bxtreme]

Great info thanks! Yes I might have worded that incorrectly. Not audio processing, but either the receiver or the Xonar U7 (when hooked up directly to an amp) would be acting as the DAC. From how I am perceiving your response, the receiver might do a better job as the DAC than Xonar.

As far as speakers go, I'll be looking around some more. But would you recommend certain features to look for in speakers that would be in this configuration? (Mostly the fact that they will be in close proximity to the listener)

 

[PurpleAngel]

Great info thanks! Yes I might have worded that incorrectly. Not audio processing, but either the receiver or the Xonar U7 (when hooked up directly to an amp) would be acting as the DAC. From how I am perceiving your response, the receiver might do a better job as the DAC than Xonar.

As far as speakers go, I'll be looking around some more. But would you recommend certain features to look for in speakers that would be in this configuration? (Mostly the fact that they will be in close proximity to the listener)

 
I'm not a speaker expert, but say find a 5.1 speaker setup on sale or on close out, to get the best value.
I would expect speakers from a dedicated audio manufacture to offer a better value, then speakers made by a big "name brand" company that spends a lot of money advertising their "brand name".
 
A decent stand alone sub-woofer starts at around $300 (or more), so find reviews on any sub-woofer you might buy that's included in any 5.1 package deal.
If the sub-woofer retails normally for $200 or less, it maybe not be that great of a sub-woofer.
 
How big is the room and how big of a speaker would you prefer.
Smaller speakers so they blend into the room or fit on your desk or larger speakers that fill the whole room with sound?
How close is "close proximity"?

 

[Bxtreme]

I would prefer smaller speakers since I would like them to sit on my desk. Since all of the speakers would be on my desk, they will sit about 1.5 to 3 feet away from me.

 

[pinnahertz]

 
1. I really like that I can customize each component in this setup versus having some crappy surround sound PC speakers (like the Logitech and Creative speaker systems).
 
2. Questions

1. 2a Are there are obvious issues with this setup?
2. 2b Would anyone suggest a better 7.1 external or internal sound card? I know some people like the virtualization on Creative products, but keep in mind that won't matter much with a 7.1 speaker configuration.
3. 2c Since the Diamond 220 speakers will be in close proximity to me (between 1.5 and 3 feet), will the setup sound terrible? I realize that near-field speakers are designed in such a way that having them set up close to the listener is not an issue. Since the 220's aren't near-field, I'm worried about the sound.

 
3. FYI - the desk will be custom made, so I'm not too worried about having enough room for bookshelf speakers, unless they are enormous. So feel free to suggest another speaker.

1. While I generally agree, Logitech's THX computer speaker systems have impressed me, and I'm hard to impress.  Probably the best bang for the buck, no receiver required.  I have an early Logitech THX 5.1 system.  I'm not a gamer, it's used mostly for non-critical film and music, but I've also installed these systems in small radio production studios.  They work surprisingly well, way better than the non-THX stuff. 
 
2a. Yeah, a few.  They relate to other points...
2b. The sound card would be fine.  Mostly the issues would be support and integration with the system.  Your call on virtualization, I generally avoid it. 
2c. The Diamond 220 isn't designed for near-field use.  The main differences in speakers built for near-field vs far-field is the physical distance between the woofer center and the tweeter center, and the spectral balance they are tuned for.  Larger speakers with vertical or horizontal space between the tweeter and woofer have issues in the near-field because that distance becomes a significant percentage of the listening distance, which means the listening angle  can change a lot.  In the crossover region where both drivers operate together that distance causes irregularities in response as the listening angle changes.  If you are a distance away, the angle doesn't change as much as you move listening positions.  If the speaker is vertically oriented so the tweeter is above the woofer, these changes mostly occur in the vertical plane, so vertical position becomes too critical.  Near-field speakers have smaller drivers, or coaxial drivers, and are thus less critical.  As for tuning, the balance between treble and bass response changes a bit with distance, so near-field speakers should have that optimized, along with a well-designed, positioned, and calibrated sub.  This is one of the things the THX products have done well, optimization for near-field operation. 
 
The other issue that is slightly more critical for gaming is that all speakers (except the sub) match in timbre.  The use of a different speaker for the center (unless it's part of an engineered system) or different surround speakers is less appropriate for gaming. 
 

 
I'm not the expert, but I'm not sure you going to find much real world improvement going with a 7.1, over a 5.1.
If you had a large room and needed to fill it with audio, then 7.1 makes sense.
Or if you had to use smaller speakers (smaller then normal), then maybe 7.1 makes sense.

The main advantage of 7.1 over 5.1 is better surround localization.  And while that's true in any room, in a small near-field system it's even more obvious because sound from each speaker is highly direct-field dominant with very little reflected sound.  That means you localize each speaker very well in a small system, and that the position of phantom images between speakers changes with very little listener movement.  Imaging of each becomes more specific and less vague with sounds clustering around individual surround speakers.   That means more speakers are better, provided the original track is mixed for discrete 7.1.  
 

1. Around 1200 maybe or 1400.

2. The issue with the receiver I mentioned is passing through 4k. Receiver can't pass more than 60hz I believe with 4k. The monitor will be able to support 4k at 144hz.

3. I'll probably start with 5.1 as you've suggested. My only thought about 7.1 is hearing something that is to the side of me. But the only way that will happen is probably through surround virtualization. So 5.1, I agree, is probably better to start with.

1. The budget puts you in sort of a no-mans land.  The better passive 5.1 and 7.1 "systems" land in that neighborhood, but leave you very little for an AVR.  The packaged computer speaker systems land considerably below that.  
 
2.  You'll want to feed audio to an AVR or powered speakers via discrete analog (which severely limits your AVR choice) or a compressed digital stream via optical or coax (which will handle DD or DTS 7.1).  
 
3. See my comments on the post just above this.  If a game is mixed for 7.1 discrete you'll want your speakers to be positioned exactly in the same locations as the original mix if you expect the surround sound information to prompt an action.  There is no need for virtualization to accomplish this with 7.1.

 

[pinnahertz]

I would prefer smaller speakers since I would like them to sit on my desk. Since all of the speakers would be on my desk, they will sit about 1.5 to 3 feet away from me.

You may want to re-think speakers just sitting on your desk.  The desk creates an early reflection.  They should ideally be elevated off any reflecting surface, and at eye-level.  1.5 feet is really, really close!
 
Don't forget, in surround, the key to realistic positioning of sounds is to follow the prescribed speaker layout plan.  Unless your desk surrounds you, you can't do that with all speakers on a desk anyway. 

 

[pinnahertz]

 
1. If your changing 5.1 audio into 7.1 or 7.1 into 5.1, not sure there is a lot of audio processing going on.
 
2. S/PDIF (optical or coaxial) can pass 2-channel of PCM (un-compressed) audio in 24-bit/96K or 24-bit/192K
So you can buy hi-res (96K or 192K) music audio, then send it thru S/PDIF, to a receiver and the receiver can expand it to 5.1 or 7.1 speakers.
 

1.  Extracting 5.1 to 7.1 is not a trivial matter.  It involves matrix decoding and interchannel level-based directional steering logic.  Down-mixing 7.1 to 5.1 is handled within the specific codec.  I don't know how you'd classify what "a lot of audio processing" is, but none of this involves anything simple, all involves thousands of lines of DSP code.  
 
2. S/PDIF and Toslink/Optical can also handle Dolby Digital 7.1 and DTS 7.1 compressed streams.  In a discussion about gaming audio, you simply must have discrete channels. Discrete 5.1/7.1 wins hands down over two-channel "hig-res" "expanded" back to 5.1 or 7.1 because the down mix to two-channels is well defined, but the up-mix back to multi-channel is full of ambiguities.  
 
With respect to 24/96 or 24/192, there is so incredibly little material available that is originally recorded in those formats and maintained in them all the way through production to release.  Most so-called "hi-res" audio you can obtain is up-sampled from conventional masters.  If an AVR is used for passive speakers, lower cost units mostly do all of their internal audio processing at 24/48, down-sampling everything to that if necessary.  

 

[pinnahertz]

Op: One more point to make on setting this system up.  You'll absolutely want to calibrate it, at very least adjusting each speaker volume to be equal at your listening position.  Simple level adjustments can be made in any system, even a sound card and amplified speakers.  AVRs have individual speaker level controls.  You'll want a cheap/free smart phone app SPL meter to measure relative levels using test signals you can download or play from a DVD.  The app/phone doesn't have to be accurate at all for this, it's only measuring relative levels.  
 
If you were to choose an AVR and passive speakers, most AVRs have some form of auto-calibration.  The basic ones just adjust speaker levels with a supplied mic and internally generated test signals.  The better ones perform equalization, which is even more important with small-ish, lower cost speakers.  
 
Look for better deals on more expensive gear on sites like accessories4less.com, which seems to be a favorite, or overstock.com.  For example, right now on accessories4less there's a Denon AVR-S710W for $299, 7.2 channels, includes Audyssey auto-calibration (my personal pick for that kind of thing).
 
Back to speakers...this is where you need to spend most of your research time.  Since you will be so close to them you should stay with smaller form-factor speakers that will work well near-field.  That lets out most "bookshelf" sized speakers, which creates a bit of a problem, as there aren't a lot of really good compact speakers.  If you can back away from the speakers, you could consider small bookshelf units which will increase the available choices.  Otherwise the Logitech THX line really isn't a bad choice.  In any case, buy from someplace with a good return policy just in case you hate them.  

 

[PurpleAngel]

  2. S/PDIF and Toslink/Optical can also handle Dolby Digital 7.1 and DTS 7.1 compressed streams.  

 
For encoding/compression of digital audio, I can only find info that DDL (Dolby Digital Live) for up to 6-channels (5.1) and DTS-Connect for up to 5.1 (6-channels).
Where do I find info on Dolby or DTS that can compress (encode) 8-channels (7.1) for passing digital audio thru S/PDIF (optiocal or coaxial)?

 

[PurpleAngel]

I would prefer smaller speakers since I would like them to sit on my desk. Since all of the speakers would be on my desk, they will sit about 1.5 to 3 feet away from me.

 
Are all the speakers going to be on the desk in front of you?
(assuming sub-woofer will be on the floor)