[b0bb]

Also, even if I got audio to the receiver through this method speaker distance is still an issue. Wouldn't the positional audio be better if I had near-field speakers placed close to me versus having regular home theatre speakers placed all around the room?

My thought was to really mimic older traditional pc speaker systems that could be placed on your desk. I remember having a set a long time ago and it did rather well in terms of positional audio.

 
That is what Audyssey is for, the DSPs adjust and compensate for the speaker positioning delays, wall reflections etc  for each individual speaker.
This allows the use of the fronts  and center on the desk and the surrounds on stands.
 
 
Audyssey plays a series of calibrated test tones thru each speaker and a microphone plugged into the receiver listens for the response, this receiver then calculates the correct compensation curve for each individual speaker.
 
As the receiver listens for the speaker+room response, it deals with near field speakers quite nicely. I have the Audyssey microphone take samples in 3 locations around the chair  at ear level about 12" apart
 
Positional audio is just awesome once the system is calibrated for phase and positional delays as well as the different speaker responses.
 
Similar tech in this area is made by Dirac and Trinnov.

 

[GHoldridge]

How about minidsp? They have a couple products aimed at building a surround sound system.

 

[PurpleAngel]

  Are you asking about the channel capacity of the codecs?  Dolby Digital has had 7.1 for the last 15 years at least, probably longer, built into every 7.1 AVR.  DTS has always been right there too, they are competitors.  7.1 tracks have been on DVDs for about that long too, just a bit rare since the home version of 7.1 has a different speaker layout than theatrical, and tracks are mixed for universal theatrical release.  When they started "remastering for home video" (don't get me started on that one!) we found home 7.1 tracks on a few movies.  The downmix from 7.1 (home) to 5.1 is built into the codec and handled by metatags in the stream, so it's easy to build a 7.1 track and properly downmix to 5.1 on the fly.
 
I haven't researched games, but they use the same codecs, so it would only make sense to utilize the full capabilities therein. 
 
It's not a question of the codec, it's a question of the bandwidth the technology carrying the bitstream.  Optical and coax are both a bit limited, but can handle the full bandwidth of a fully loaded DD or DTS track.  They cannot handle uncompressed streams beyond two channels with codecs like Dolby TrueHD, DTS Master Audio, or good ol' PCM. 
 
Here's the info on Toslink.
 
Here's the info on SPDIF.
 
As an alternative you might want to look into an HDMI EDID manager like this.  The idea is to capture the EDID of a display so it gets full res while passing HDMI audio to another device that would identify at a lower res.   You'd use this with an HDMI splitter to get full uncompressed bitstreams to your AVR while maintaining full res to the display.  The disclaimer here is I have used EDID managers, but not in your specific type of system.  In theory it should work, you should research it yourself and of course buy with return capability. 

 
Did some reading.
S/PDIF has been passing encoded (bitstream?)/compressed audio files that have more then 6-channles (5.1), like 6.1 or 7.1
But we as normal consumers seem to be limited to 5.1 for creating are own encoded/compressed digital audio files, for passing thru S/PDIF like when we buy sound cards (add-on or on-board) for use on out computers.
So for the Thread Starter to use S/PDIF and 7.1, he can only use content that has been pre-encoded to 7.1, which I'm assuming a feature PC games do not come with?

 

[Bxtreme]

I belie even overwatch is 7.1 and has Dolby Atmos as well. But that's the only game I've heard of with those features (which I own and would be a blast to play with lol).

 

[pinnahertz]

   
Did some reading.
S/PDIF has been passing encoded (bitstream?)/compressed audio files that have more then 6-channles (5.1), like 6.1 or 7.1
But we as normal consumers seem to be limited to 5.1 for creating are own encoded/compressed digital audio files, for passing thru S/PDIF like when we buy sound cards (add-on or on-board) for use on out computers.

That's an odd statement. "Normal consumers" don't create 5.1 or 7.1 soundtracks. That's something a content creator would do, and if that's who you are, then yes, all the tools to encode your discrete channels are indeed available to you, and you should already own them as part of your business. You will, however, be producing your work on a discrete system without encoding while monitoring on a hopefully well designed a calibrated system because that's the only way you can mix and adjust on the fly. Compression and encoding (in this case, same process) would be the final step before creating your master for release.
 
Sorry, can't see why that's even part of this particular discussion.

So for the Thread Starter to use S/PDIF and 7.1, he can only use content that has been pre-encoded to 7.1, which I'm assuming a feature PC games do not come with?

Again, strange point to make. Content creators are a miniscule fraction of the total population of gamers and would, at least if they're serious, have all the correct compression and encoding tools. For those just tinkering around your only real limitation comes in how you pass your final mix to your sound system, which would by necessity be unencoded and uncompressed, likely discrete analog channels. That's right up until you decide to actually release your work, then you have to invest in the proper compression tools.
 
Everyone else, literally everyone, is using pre-encoded content.
 
It's a non-issue.

 

[pinnahertz]

How about minidsp? They have a couple products aimed at building a surround sound system.

They do make several DIRAC Live boxes which do good things, but I find their MiniDSP line to be far to limited and basic to be of much use.  Better to pick a short stack of FBQ2496 units and link to REW.  
 
Note that using external room calibration tools like miniDSP or other products also mandates that either powered speakers or separate power amps with passive speakers also be used.  The net cost can often be several times that of passive speakers and an AVR with auto room cal built in.  For small "audience of one" systems  like that being discussed in this thread, the extra power available in the typical stand alone power amps is completely unnecessary.  

 

[PurpleAngel]

  That's an odd statement. "Normal consumers" don't create 5.1 or 7.1 soundtracks. That's something a content creator would do, and if that's who you are, then yes, all the tools to encode your discrete channels are indeed available to you, and you should already own them as part of your business. You will, however, be producing your work on a discrete system without encoding while monitoring on a hopefully well designed a calibrated system because that's the only way you can mix and adjust on the fly. Compression and encoding (in this case, same process) would be the final step before creating your master for release.
 
Sorry, can't see why that's even part of this particular discussion.
Again, strange point to make. Content creators are a miniscule fraction of the total population of gamers and would, at least if they're serious, have all the correct compression and encoding tools. For those just tinkering around your only real limitation comes in how you pass your final mix to your sound system, which would by necessity be unencoded and uncompressed, likely discrete analog channels. That's right up until you decide to actually release your work, then you have to invest in the proper compression tools.

 
The average consumer does encoded audio, from a 6-channel source, on their PC every time they have 5.1 PCM audio on their computer and want to send it out thru S/PDIF, to lets say their A/V receiver.
No sure i said anything about creating audio "sound tracks" themselves.

 

[pinnahertz]

   
The average consumer does encoded audio, from a 6-channel source, on their PC every time they have 5.1 PCM audio on their computer and want to send it out thru S/PDIF, to lets say their A/V receiver.
No sure i said anything about creating audio "sound tracks" themselves.

Ok...how about an example of unencoded PCM 5.1 audio?

 

[PurpleAngel]

  Ok...how about an example of unencoded PCM 5.1 audio?

 
Any computer game set to 5.1 speaker output.
Any disk movie playing from a computer's built in DVD drive and the software used for playing the movie is set to PCM/LPCM output.
Any music disk (with 5.1 surround sound) playing from a computer's built in DVD drive and the software used for playing the (5.1) music is set to PCM/LPCM output.

 

[pinnahertz]

   
Any computer game set to 5.1 speaker output.
Any disk movie playing from a computer's built in DVD drive and the software used for playing the movie is set to PCM/LPCM output.
Any music disk (with 5.11 surround sound) playing from a computer's built in DVD drive and the software used for playing the (5.1) music is set to PCM/LPCM output.

Yes, but all of those are encoded and compressed in their original form.  With your settings you've made the choice to decode the bitstream into PCM then output it to whatever.   You don't have to decode the bitstream, though.  It could be directly output to an optical or coax output then decoded in another device. 
 
So, again, you can use the optical/SPDIF output for 5.1/7.1. You've just chosen settings that preclude that usage. 

 

[PurpleAngel]

  Yes, but all of those are encoded and compressed in their original form.  With your settings you've made the choice to decode the bitstream into PCM then output it to whatever.   You don't have to decode the bitstream, though.  It could be directly output to an optical or coax output then decoded in another device. 
 
So, again, you can use the optical/SPDIF output for 5.1/7.1. You've just chosen settings that preclude that usage. 

 
A game would not use bitstream/encoded audio for normal game play, gaming audio would be created (in PCM) as the game is being played.
Yes, people do have choice and you asked for examples of when there is 5.1 PCM, so people might choice to set there audio to PCM output.

 

[pinnahertz]

   
A game would not use bitstream/encoded audio for normal game play, gaming audio would be created (in PCM) as the game is being played.
Yes, people do have choice and you asked for examples of when there is 5.1 PCM, so people might choice to set there audio to PCM output.

I'll admit to not being a gamer (I think I already said that), but a bit of research shows that very few games are DTS or DD encoded.  So you're correct when it comes to, most would be PCM.  But that's the only media like that, everything else is encoded somehow. 
 
However, it also seems that a few newer motherboards with integrated sound and many newer sound cards support DD Live and DTS Connect, both of which permit on the fly DD and DTS encoding to a compatible bitstream so you can then output 5.1/7.1 via optical and SPDIF.  Apparently they're thinking specifically of people gaming on their home theater systems, which makes sense. Very few modern AVRs have mulitchannel analog inputs, so optical or SPDIF would be one answer, with HDMI being the easy way out. 
 
So, outside of owning older hardware without DD Live or DTS Connect (or HDMI), I still don't see the limitation.  Good grief, I haven't seen a PC without HDMI for quite a few years now, and a gamer would certainly want a high performance GPU, and get HDMI audio along with it. 

 

[GHoldridge]

They do make several DIRAC Live boxes which do good things, but I find their MiniDSP line to be far to limited and basic to be of much use.  Better to pick a short stack of FBQ2496 units and link to REW.  

Note that using external room calibration tools like miniDSP or other products also mandates that either powered speakers or separate power amps with passive speakers also be used.  The net cost can often be several times that of passive speakers and an AVR with auto room cal built in.  For small "audience of one" systems  like that being discussed in this thread, the extra power available in the typical stand alone power amps is completely unnecessary.  

Yea I was thinking more of the DIRAC or whatever ones that are geared toward home theater and can be used with an avr. Some people don't like auto calibration and a lot of avr's don't have a lot of fine tuning available.

 

[pinnahertz]

Yea I was thinking more of the DIRAC or whatever ones that are geared toward home theater and can be used with an avr. Some people don't like auto calibration and a lot of avr's don't have a lot of fine tuning available.

None of the external cal/EQ solutions can be used easily with just any AVR.  The lower end AVRs don't have line outputs, which these require, so if you don't have line outs, forget it.  The higher-end ones do have line outs, but then you need to amplify the output of the EQ to drive speakers (can't use the AVRs built in amps anymore), so you're buying external power amps.  It gets expensive very fast.  
 
miniDSP does have an HDMI based solution that sits between an HDMI source and an AVR.  Nice, but if you have more than one HDMI source you'll be buying an external HDMI switcher because this solutions precludes the use of your AVR's input selector.  And, of course, no EQ on an analog source.  
 
And that's why I always suggest an AVR with built-in auto-cal/EQ.  It's easy, cheap and effective.  Sure, the external gear may perform better (after you've put in a couple of days worth of time on the learning curve), but it won't be cost effective.  
 
Yes, some don't like auto cal.  Lots of theories about that from preconditioning to the un-EQ'ed version (anything else sounds wrong), to improper use of the auto cal tools, to room issues that simply cannot be corrected electronically, and on and on.  I've never calibrated a client's room where he didn't immediately love the results, though.  My go-to is Audyssey (XT32, with Pro cal), but I've used external solutions too in commercial installations.  In my experience, the difference never fails to amaze, if it's done right.  And I don't always get it right the first time!  
 
My quick anecdote about that is my Audyssey Pro cal of a system with $350K worth of speakers and amps.  The owner loved it before I started, but was totally enthralled after.  He was beside himself, couldn't compliment it enough.  So, a little processor included (for free) in his Pre-pro bettered his system, and that with speakers at $60K each.  I'd like to think my skill had a little do do with it, but truthfully, Audyssey is amazing. I'd have been working for a couple of days to match what it did in a couple of hours.
 
And yes, AVR auto-cal is not very adjustable after it's been performed. There are typically only a couple of general target curves, if that.  But there is a lot that can be done during the calibration procedure that makes a huge difference, essentially customizing the result by carefully handling the measurement portion of the process.  It's like having custom tuning.  The same is true when using the external solutions, though, and mostly that's something few people are aware of, much less delve into. 

 

[PurpleAngel]

  I'll admit to not being a gamer (I think I already said that), but a bit of research shows that very few games are DTS or DD encoded.  So you're correct when it comes to, most would be PCM.  But that's the only media like that, everything else is encoded somehow. 
 
However, it also seems that a few newer motherboards with integrated sound and many newer sound cards support DD Live and DTS Connect, both of which permit on the fly DD and DTS encoding to a compatible bitstream so you can then output 5.1/7.1 via optical and SPDIF.  Apparently they're thinking specifically of people gaming on their home theater systems, which makes sense. Very few modern AVRs have mulitchannel analog inputs, so optical or SPDIF would be one answer, with HDMI being the easy way out. 

 
I can not find any add-on sound card or on-board audio, that comes with Dolby or DTS software, that claims it can encode 7.1 (8-channels) of digital audio,
Only can find claims of 5.1 (6-channel) encoding (converting PCM to encoded)
Where do you see motherboards or sound cards, that come with Dolby or DTS, that claim they can take 7.1 (8-channels) of PCM audio and encode it, for passing thru S/PDIF (optical or coaxial)?