PC Oscilloscopes
May 18, 2006 at 8:58 PM Thread Starter Post #1 of 43

raduray

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If you Google the topic, you'll find lots of inexpensive PC based oscilloscopes. The USB variants look attractive. I could hook one up to an old laptop I have hanging around my house and I'd have an inexpensive scope.

I used to be an electronics engineer many years ago, but went to the dark side of management. Now I'm discovering the DIY world and remember how useful a tool a scope is.

Anyone have any experiences with these guys? Are they toys or useful instruments, in the audio spectrum.

Here's a link for one inexpensive option: http://www.hobbyengineering.com/H1976.html

Radu
 
May 18, 2006 at 9:42 PM Post #3 of 43
Quote:

Originally Posted by raduray
If you Google the topic, you'll find lots of inexpensive PC based oscilloscopes. The USB variants look attractive. I could hook one up to an old laptop I have hanging around my house and I'd have an inexpensive scope.

I used to be an electronics engineer many years ago, but went to the dark side of management. Now I'm discovering the DIY world and remember how useful a tool a scope is.

Anyone have any experiences with these guys? Are they toys or useful instruments, in the audio spectrum.

Here's a link for one inexpensive option: http://www.hobbyengineering.com/H1976.html

Radu



Don't get this oscilloscope, its more a toy than anything else. I received a free one of those for the lab and would not recommend it for anything audio related.
 
May 18, 2006 at 9:43 PM Post #4 of 43
I researched that USB scope. The issue seemed to be 8 bit resolution limits precision with audio measurements.

Ebay is the ticket for analog apparently.

The TEK 465 gets a lot of attention.
 
May 18, 2006 at 10:42 PM Post #6 of 43
I used to use a Tek 464 many years ago, and have seen them on ebay. It's a bit on the large size, though. Any recommendations for a smaller used scope for audio?
Radu
 
May 19, 2006 at 12:09 AM Post #7 of 43
Quote:

Originally Posted by raduray
I used to use a Tek 464 many years ago, and have seen them on ebay. It's a bit on the large size, though. Any recommendations for a smaller used scope for audio?
Radu



Ditto that request, I've been thinking about a scope for a while and with a couple of upcoming projects it may be required.
 
May 19, 2006 at 6:21 AM Post #9 of 43
Nate and Nuduray,

I am no expert on oscilloscopes but I spent a lot of time recently searching ebay until I found something I was comfortable with. I will give you my general impressions; maybe it will be a starting point for your own research.

I bought a Tek 2235A. I paid $287 + (reasonable) shipping for it, which was near an ebay record for this model. My seller claimed he was the original owner and had used it very little. It came with all manuals, 2 probes, and even the original plastic pouches for the probes. I saw nothing to indicate the seller was telling tales. The unit is absolutely pristine, including the probe pouch on top, which usually takes a beating very quickly.

I paid "top dollar" for mine because I got a $3000 (new) scope for 10 cents on the dollar and I didn't care as much what I paid ($200 or $300); I cared that it would work for me for many years without a problem. The cost of any repair that I can't do myself (or even a calibration) would be more than I paid for it. Same for many of the parts even if I could repair it. I wanted the dice loaded a little in my favor when I rolled it. Even in retrospect I am happy with it and I would buy another one if I needed it.

I have seen that model (and similar) go for as low as $100ish. It is amazing that the typical scope put up on ebay is described like this:

"I don't know what it is or what it does or even if it works. No probes, power plug or manual. No Returns"

More typically with a return privilege , maybe $200+, which is really cheap considering what they sold for new and the build quality.

Ebay is absolutely glutted with these things. You have to try to find something that actually works. If it doesn't, just the freight back and forth can be a significant fraction of the cost. The smaller scopes were designed as field scopes and a lot of them look like they have been kicked around a bit.

Most of these scopes are sold by liquidators. It might be a good idea to try to find one being sold by the user, just so you can ask questions and get intelligent answers.

For a while I put in a search for scopes within 30 miles of me. My plan was to try to go and look one over before I bought it, and at least plug it in and see it working, plus save the freight turnaround if I had a problem. I ended up shipping mine in because it was hard finding really nice ones locally.

Very few ebay scopes come with probes, which cost about $20 ea. and up. Factor that in to your price. A manual, at least on CD, will be very important because they are complicated beasts. You can buy manuals on Ebay, for widely varying prices. My manual includes several hundred pages of repair data, schematics, board layouts, part lists, etc. I might even be able to fix it if it breaks.

The 22xx series is a very basic scope, 100MHZ, no DMM, no cursors, nothing fancy. The 23xx series is a little nicer, some offering built in DMM (Which I didn't think was that important). Then there are later or more advanced and higher BW models that sell in the $600+ range with cursor measurements and other neat things; 4 channel scopes, etc. The 243x models are 150MHZ and digital. They are very common and sell for about $450 and up up up.

Some models come with built in diagnostics, which is very nice because when you get it, you need to accept or reject it quickly and you may not understand it well enough to know if it is fully functional at that point. Mine did not; it is a very basic model.


Scopes under the 100MHZ level sell very very cheap, even Tek scopes. As far as features, scopes have a lot of functionality designed more for TV and/or digital diagnostics that we don't care about. What we want is a nice wide bandwidth (100MHZ) so that if our amp is oscillating we can see it, even if it is a 40MHZ oscillation, and to accurately display square waves. All these 22xx 23xx model scopes are triggered, which is probably the most important feature. If you don't buy features you don't really need, you can get a very basic but very high quality Tek scope cheap. The sexier scopes seem to get more bids and more demand.

As soon as you get your scope you will want a function generator so you have a signal to run through your amp. I ebay'd a 4MHZ Wavetek 182A for about $100. That is a fairly common model. It is a decent basic generator and the square waves look ok up to about 100KHZ or so, which is all we probably care about. The rise is not perfect (a touch of overshoot) but it is good enough for what I need. If anyone is interested I could probably shoot some images and post it. A 4MHZ is probably a good bandwidth for these things. Lesser bandwidths will have more limited decent square wave range and higher bandwidth models get a bit more expensive.

Then I ebay'd a lot of twelve 6 foot BNC-BNC cables for $20 or so. I cut them up and make cables as needed. BNC connectors are expensive; I thought that was a decent deal and I have a lifetime supply of pre-crimped connectors. You'll want one BNC-BNC to connect to your scope's trigger; that simplifies the triggering and eliminates constant playing with the trigger level to keep the image stabilized. Another set or sets to connect to your various amp input jacks (3.5mm and/or RCA) and maybe a fallback set with alligator clips or grabber clips.
 
May 19, 2006 at 1:46 PM Post #10 of 43
Quote:

Originally Posted by tangent
See these reviews:

http://www.embedded.com/showArticle....leID=160902529



Is 20 Vpp maximum input going to be a limiting issue with the Paralax?

Quote:

Very few ebay scopes come with probes, which cost about $20 ea. and up. Factor that in to your price. A manual, at least on CD, will be very important because they are complicated beasts. You can buy manuals on Ebay, for widely varying prices. My manual includes several hundred pages of repair data, schematics, board layouts, part lists, etc. I might even be able to fix it if it breaks.


Some options in case someone ends up with a scope without a manual or probe:

A bunch of free old manuals (not sure they are as complete as NeilR describes):
http://bama.sbc.edu/tektroni.htm

New probes ~$46 (by scope make and model):
http://www.probemaster.com/
(I have no experience with them)
 
May 19, 2006 at 3:49 PM Post #11 of 43
Quote:

Originally Posted by Samgotit
Is 20 Vpp maximum input going to be a limiting issue with the Paralax?


Actually, limits that low are pretty common to most PC based scopes. This is ameliorated to some extent by using 10x probes. It means you can scope North American wall voltage safely. No good for looking at noise on tube amp rails, or for looking at wall voltage in most other countries, though.
 
May 19, 2006 at 4:13 PM Post #12 of 43
Why bother with an external PC scope that only has 8bit resolution when you can use any generic sound card + a free oscilloscope software? Add into the loop, Matlab and your instrument toolbox and data processing capabilities grows substantially.

I've had a chance to try both solutions and prefer the generic sound card solution better because of the fact that parallax software tends to be rather buggy at times... There ftdi USB driver simulates serial port communication, which also tends to be a bit slow.
 
May 19, 2006 at 5:15 PM Post #13 of 43
Quote:

Originally Posted by grasshpr
Why bother with an external PC scope that only has 8bit resolution


Your average "real" DSO is also limited to 8 bits, typically. That doesn't make it any less useful.

If your goal is to make fine audio measurements, yes, you want at least 16 bits of resolution. But that's hardly the only reason for having a scope. Try testing for ringing with a square wave with your sound card. Try looking for signs of oscillation with your sound card.

I presume everyone reading this thread has a PC (in the general sense...not meaning Windows boxen) so we should confine ourselves to talking about scopes here. Yes, you should also get some kind of PC audio measurement setup going, if only RMAA, but that's beside the point of this thread.

[size=xx-small]P.S. I feel like I've been defending PC based scopes in this thread. Personally, I despise the things. I need real knobs, and something built to be a professional instrument, not a hobbyist tool and certainly not a consumer grade PC accessory. I'm giving out this info because I can see that others might have a use for them.[/size]
 
May 19, 2006 at 5:53 PM Post #14 of 43
Quote:

Originally Posted by tangent
If your goal is to make fine audio measurements, yes, you want at least 16 bits of resolution. But that's hardly the only reason for having a scope. Try testing for ringing with a square wave with your sound card. Try looking for signs of oscillation with your sound card.


Out of curiosity Tangent, what scope do you use?
 
May 19, 2006 at 6:49 PM Post #15 of 43
Quote:

Originally Posted by tangent

[size=xx-small]P.S. I feel like I've been defending PC based scopes in this thread. Personally, I despise the things. I need real knobs, and something built to be a professional instrument, not a hobbyist tool and certainly not a consumer grade PC accessory. I'm giving out this info because I can see that others might have a use for them.[/size]



I found dealing with the "knobs" on this one really annoying, a PC (shockwave) simulation...
http://www.virtual-oscilloscope.com/simulation.html#

Seems like it might be similar to USB stuff.
 

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