[trajanx]

I hope I'm posting in the right place, and I hope its ok to blatantly plead for advice here - I'm new to the forums and new to higher-end audio, but I'm trying to learn!

I'm aiming to upgrade my PC audio, not so much for music/movies but for gaming purposes. Partly for competitive reasons, but also because I'd like my games to sound better. I'm using a cheap Sony pair of circumaural headphones and onboard sound.

I'd like to upgrade up to the Sennheiser PC350, but my research shows that these headphones are not going to sound very good unless I have an amplifier, since they have 150 ohms of resistance... If I go this route, I'm going to need either a standalone amplifier (~$100?) or a high end sound card with built in amp (~$150-$200?). I'd love to get feedback on whether this is all correct, whether the PC350s are a good choice or not, or if I ought to be looking at stand alone amplifiers instead of soundcards.

Regarding soundcards, I've seen the Omega Claro Halo highly recommended ($180). Slightly cheaper is the Auzen X-Fi Forte. Some comments indicate that the Omega card would produce better music/movie quality, and generally better quality sound overall, but that due to the X-Fi chip, the Auzen would produce better gaming audio specifically. Gaming is definitely my priority. I've also seen complaints surrounding the Auzen drivers (which are the Creative drivers). Any truth to all this?

Thanks again for any help at all!

 

[Mehve]

Impedance is only one measure of a headphone, and doesn't dictate whether an amplifier is needed or not. There are more than a few low-impedance headphones that are actually hard to drive. You'll get mixed opinions on the PC350's, and you pay a price premium for the smexy attached mic (which works well, at least) - try to find them on sale, at the very least - The $200+ you see sometimes is too much for them.

For what it's worth, my own PC350's can be driven fine with my Auzentech Prelude, and my own experience is that they didn't actually benefit all that much when I tried them out of a proper amplifier. But if all you're working with is on-board sound, then that might be pushing it a little.

In your situation, I'd probably be more tempted to look at a high-end sound card, simply because it wouldn't do you much good to just amplify mediocre-quality on-board sound. Don't go out of your way for X-Fi unless you're certain that the games you play use it, fewer games use it than Creative would like you to realize.

 

[DTrain]

The first thing you should do is see what type of slots are available on your motherboard. Some soundcards are PCI, and some are PCI-E. IF you have both available, I would probably go for PCI-E for future compatability.

I ran the 350s for a couple of years with a Prelude, and it was a decent setup. I then switched to a Xonar STX, which was a better sounding card imo, but it just didn't play nice with some of my older games. I have since bought an Azun HTHD (which is sort of like a Forte with some HDMI capabilities). This card drives the 350s a bit better than the Prelude. While it still doesn't sound as good as the STX, it just games better.

So if you've got an available PCI-E slot, I'd get the Forte. Having said that, you don't mention a budget, but there are much better options available than the 350s. The AD-700s seem to be highly regarding on this board and others for gaming, and I think are actually cheaper than the 350s. If you ever get into music and movies more, at that time you could look into getting an external amp and/or DAC, and still benefit from the processing of the Forte. Beyer DT880s seem to be a popular choice among people with similar setups.

One downside of headphones compared to a headset is that you'll need to get a mic. I tried a Zalman clip-on mic, and got complaints that it was picking up too much noise from the game (I've got open headphones- AKG k701s, which hardly keep the sound in at all). I now use a $20 "over the head" (or something like that) mic I got at my neighborhood Radioshack. For some reason it doesn't pick up game noise, but I do get complaints that my voice is quiet. I also miss the mute and volume control on the 350s. The vastly improved sound makes it worth it, however.

 

[wmf]

Quote:

Originally Posted by trajanx /img/forum/go_quote.gif I hope I'm posting in the right place, and I hope its ok to blatantly plead for advice here - I'm new to the forums and new to higher-end audio, but I'm trying to learn! I'm aiming to upgrade my PC audio, not so much for music/movies but for gaming purposes. Partly for competitive reasons, but also because I'd like my games to sound better. I'm using a cheap Sony pair of circumaural headphones and onboard sound. I'd like to upgrade up to the Sennheiser PC350, but my research shows that these headphones are not going to sound very good unless I have an amplifier, since they have 150 ohms of resistance... If I go this route, I'm going to need either a standalone amplifier (~$100?) or a high end sound card with built in amp (~$150-$200?). I'd love to get feedback on whether this is all correct, whether the PC350s are a good choice or not, or if I ought to be looking at stand alone amplifiers instead of soundcards. Regarding soundcards, I've seen the Omega Claro Halo highly recommended ($180). Slightly cheaper is the Auzen X-Fi Forte. Some comments indicate that the Omega card would produce better music/movie quality, and generally better quality sound overall, but that due to the X-Fi chip, the Auzen would produce better gaming audio specifically. Gaming is definitely my priority. I've also seen complaints surrounding the Auzen drivers (which are the Creative drivers). Any truth to all this? Thanks again for any help at all!

a good match would be the AD700s (especially if your doing competitive play), and the Auzen Forte 7.1 sound card. no amp required, and you would hear a HUGE difference to your current setup. just dont expect huge bass from the AD700s.

 

[Gunfreak]

Quote:

Originally Posted by trajanx /img/forum/go_quote.gif I hope I'm posting in the right place, and I hope its ok to blatantly plead for advice here - I'm new to the forums and new to higher-end audio, but I'm trying to learn! I'm aiming to upgrade my PC audio, not so much for music/movies but for gaming purposes. Partly for competitive reasons, but also because I'd like my games to sound better. I'm using a cheap Sony pair of circumaural headphones and onboard sound. I'd like to upgrade up to the Sennheiser PC350, but my research shows that these headphones are not going to sound very good unless I have an amplifier, since they have 150 ohms of resistance... If I go this route, I'm going to need either a standalone amplifier (~$100?) or a high end sound card with built in amp (~$150-$200?). I'd love to get feedback on whether this is all correct, whether the PC350s are a good choice or not, or if I ought to be looking at stand alone amplifiers instead of soundcards. Regarding soundcards, I've seen the Omega Claro Halo highly recommended ($180). Slightly cheaper is the Auzen X-Fi Forte. Some comments indicate that the Omega card would produce better music/movie quality, and generally better quality sound overall, but that due to the X-Fi chip, the Auzen would produce better gaming audio specifically. Gaming is definitely my priority. I've also seen complaints surrounding the Auzen drivers (which are the Creative drivers). Any truth to all this? Thanks again for any help at all!

From my personal experience with the PC-350s I would say save your money and Mod a pair of ATH AD700s to add a mic. The PC-350s sounded really muddy and inaccurate to me even after a decent burn in time. Granted, I know a lot of people do a small mod to them to make them sound a bit better but for that price I wouldn't be so quick to buy with the intention of modding without at least some experience with it.

As far as sound cards go I personally don't have enough experience to say but when it comes to competitive gaming I have a pretty steep resume and can say that positioning, accuracy, and fast smooth sound will improve your game waaay more than than anything else. Might I ask what game you play?

A link to the headphones I personally recommend - Here

And a link with information to add a mic for team play - Here

And another easy mod option - Here


Also FYI The PC-360 model will be coming out which *hopefully* will be better sounding PC-350s. You can always wait until there is more info on them and make a decision then.

 

[00lunar]

Quote:

Originally Posted by trajanx /img/forum/go_quote.gif I hope I'm posting in the right place, and I hope its ok to blatantly plead for advice here - I'm new to the forums and new to higher-end audio, but I'm trying to learn! I'm aiming to upgrade my PC audio, not so much for music/movies but for gaming purposes. Partly for competitive reasons, but also because I'd like my games to sound better. I'm using a cheap Sony pair of circumaural headphones and onboard sound. I'd like to upgrade up to the Sennheiser PC350, but my research shows that these headphones are not going to sound very good unless I have an amplifier, since they have 150 ohms of resistance... If I go this route, I'm going to need either a standalone amplifier (~$100?) or a high end sound card with built in amp (~$150-$200?). I'd love to get feedback on whether this is all correct, whether the PC350s are a good choice or not, or if I ought to be looking at stand alone amplifiers instead of soundcards. Regarding soundcards, I've seen the Omega Claro Halo highly recommended ($180). Slightly cheaper is the Auzen X-Fi Forte. Some comments indicate that the Omega card would produce better music/movie quality, and generally better quality sound overall, but that due to the X-Fi chip, the Auzen would produce better gaming audio specifically. Gaming is definitely my priority. I've also seen complaints surrounding the Auzen drivers (which are the Creative drivers). Any truth to all this? Thanks again for any help at all!

PC350 are not so good IMO. I'm a review writer by profession in one of the biggest hardware portals in Poland. I reviewed 36 different cans lately, and all of them were designed for gaming, and from my experience, PC350 aren't as good, as everyone think they are. I'd choose HD555 and some decent Xonar music card. I've tested all 36 cans on 3 different sound cards: integrated one, sb x-fi fatal1ty pro, and Xonar Essence ST, and IMO - Xonar beats the two mentioned by me earlier. Xonars have decent software designed for gamers, and this one particular card offers better SQ than ANY Sound Blaster IMO. Here's the test with pictures - i hope that i won't get banned for linking another portal, but here ya go:

Wielki test s³uchawek dla graczy :: PCLab.pl

I've tested all cans on three different cards in 7 VERY popular games. The conclusion is on the last site of my article. If You need any questions - ask mate, and I'll try to help.

 

[00lunar]

Quote:

Originally Posted by 00lunar /img/forum/go_quote.gif PC350 are not so good IMO. I'm a review writer by profession in one of the biggest hardware portals in Poland. I reviewed 36 different cans lately, and all of them were designed for gaming, and from my experience, PC350 aren't as good, as everyone think they are. I'd choose HD555 and some decent Xonar music card. I've tested all 36 cans on 3 different sound cards: integrated one, sb x-fi fatal1ty pro, and Xonar Essence ST, and IMO - Xonar beats the two mentioned by me earlier. Xonars have decent software designed for gamers, and this one particular card offers better SQ than ANY Sound Blaster IMO. Here's the test with pictures - i hope that i won't get banned for linking another portal, but here ya go: Wielki test s³uchawek dla graczy :: PCLab.pl I've tested all cans on three different cards in 7 VERY popular games. The conclusion is on the last site of my article. If You need any questions - ask mate, and I'll try to help.

Needles to say, but I'm sometimes using HD800 with Xonar Essence ST, despite the fact, that this card is designed MAINLY for headphones. Did I mention, that Xonars have really nice sound wirtualization in games?

 

[wmf]

Quote:

Originally Posted by 00lunar /img/forum/go_quote.gif Needles to say, but I'm sometimes using HD800 with Xonar Essence ST, despite the fact, that this card is designed MAINLY for headphones. Did I mention, that Xonars have really nice sound wirtualization in games?

so does the auzentech Forte 7.1.

which also has a dedicated headphone input

 

[trajanx]

Wow, I really appreciate all the information here, thanks to everyone who contributed!

I am thinking of taking Gunfreak's advice and getting the AD700s. I was initially shy of these since they are open, but thinking about it, I do all of my gaming at home, in my home office, where blasting noise out everywhere isn't going to bother anyone. And the mod to add a headset doesn't sound that difficult..

* Are there any alternatives to the Sennheiser PC350s that are as good or better than the AD700s? Any that have a built in headset? I'd be willing to spend up to $150... (I dont mind doing a headset mod but having everything in a tidy package would be sweet)

Also, I've done a lot of research on sound cards since my first post. I now definitely plan to upgrade from on board, even if I don't need a headphone amp. The options appear to be:

* Auzentech Forte (X-Fi chip) - $140, headphone amp, good reviews (some folks get snaps/crackles but mostly with Vista, and I'm on W7). X-Fi, according to some reviewers, gives superior 3D/positional sound when using headphones and gaming. Also gives EAX 5.0, although this appears to be a dying standard? Everyone agrees this will not give as good music/movies as the other options, but gaming is my priority. Some folks hate the Creative drivers, other people like them.

* HT Omega Claro - $170, has a headphone amp, good reviews. Same issue with snaps/crackles but only for a few people. Not X-Fi. Does anyone know how this would stack up for gaming? I've read mixed things about that.

* Asus Xonars - ~$200? - some have headphone amps, I'm not sure version is the right card for me. I've read nothing but rave reviews about the music/movie quality, no issues with pops/crackling. Some folks dislike the drivers. Most reviews suggest that gaminq quality is great, but more than one explicitly note that for gaming purposes, an X-Fi cheap might be superior. Anyone here have experience with this?

Thanks again for all the help, I can't tell you how amazed and grateful I am for all the expertise!

 

[DTrain]

The only headset that I know of that would be better than the 350s would be Byer MMX 300, but those are at least double your budget. I think I read that they are based off of Byer DT770s, which get mixed reviews for gaming. Anyways, for the phones I too would do like Gunfreak says and buy the AD-700s and do one of the mic mods on them.

If you were a casual gamer, I'd suggest you get a Xonar STX. It is the better all around card imo. The individual sounds just sound richer than Azun. I like the Asus drivers better than Azun also.

However, in your first post you say that you are a competitive gamer. If that's the case I would strongly suggest the Forte. If you play any games that require any speed, the STX has a slight lag could really hurt a better player. I can see how the reviewers think that the STX offers great positional sound (I did too at first). But what I found after time was that I was having trouble determining the distance of enemies, teamates, events, etc. With the Azun I know exactly where things happen, period. Add to that the games just play smoother with the Azun, and the sound loop problem I was having in Valve games is gone as well.

Keep in mind this is only one guy's opinion...you could very well have people with the EXACT opposite experience. I think your best bet would be to go to the Forums for some of your favorite games and search around and see what the players who actually play the game night affer night are saying about their sound setups.

 

[trajanx]

If you play any games that require any speed, the STX has a slight lag could really hurt a better player. I can see how the reviewers think that the STX offers great positional sound (I did too at first). But what I found after time was that I was having trouble determining the distance of enemies, teamates, events, etc. With the Azun I know exactly where things happen, period. Add to that the games just play smoother with the Azun, and the sound loop problem I was having in Valve games is gone as well.

Keep in mind this is only one guy's opinion...you could very well have people with the EXACT opposite experience.

DTrain, thanks for the feedback!! That's the first I've heard that the Xonar has any lag issues, but its not surprising that a lot of people wouldn't notice. I think most people who get the Xonar are looking for awesome music/movie sound, and aren't finicky to the same extent about games.

Can I ask if you play in XP, Vista, W7 or another OS? From what I'm reading, EAX support is completely moot in Vista or XP, since EAX is rerouted through software..

It's also really helpful to hear from someone who has tried both cards and found the positioning in the X-Fi to be superior to the Xonar! This is one hell of a tough decision, I think I need to take my antiobessive pills...

 

[Mescalamba]

Best is Bravura 7.1 (due switchable OPAMPs on headphone line).

Second best X-Fi Forte 7.1, then ASUS ST/STX.

ASUS is last cause it sounds bit "machine like" for music. But it has pretty awesome 3D sound in games, when it works.. which doesnt always.

Ive tested only Forte and ST plus some lower-end ASUS.

 

[DTrain]

I'm using Windows 7 64-bit. The only card I had under XP was the Prelude. It worked great under XP, but it did not get along with Windows 7 at all for me. I have no issues with either the STX or the Azun drivers using Windows 7 (well actually with the Azun the "Creative Automode Switcher", which is a program that switches the modes between Audio Creation, Gaming, and Entertainment automatically when you start an app, does not seem to work all of the time, but that's no big deal to me).

As for EAX, I wouldn't worry about it too much. Also, when I said that the Azun was better for me for games, that included modern non-EAX games. I have no idea why these games run better for me with the Azun, but they just do.

 

[Nunyabiz]

Nothing wrong with the PC350's at all, in fact they are excellent.
I have them running through the Claro Halo sound card and they sound outstanding.
 
PC350's you can get for under $120, there are no other headphones as good for that price, NONE.
The Claro Halo is excellent and is around $180.

 

[Weaves]

 
Quote:

Best is Bravura 7.1 (due switchable OPAMPs on headphone line).

Second best X-Fi Forte 7.1, then ASUS ST/STX.

ASUS is last cause it sounds bit "machine like" for music. But it has pretty awesome 3D sound in games, when it works.. which doesnt always.

Ive tested only Forte and ST plus some lower-end ASUS.

 
According to this site, the Forte has upgradable headphone amps as well:
 
http://www.auzentech.com/site/products/opamp_intro.php
 
I am awaiting a Forte as well.  I think they are on back-order on all sites right.  I was told the first week of June.  I thought the rumor was a redesign, possibly including a kind of plastic bracket to eliminate the noise/static that some complain about.