Patrick's case: you guys mostly aren't acceptable!

[Febs]

Quote:

Originally Posted by chesebert /img/forum/go_quote.gif this would accomplish nothing. Any reasonably well made cable of a reasonable length with reasonable gauge that satisfies the application the cable is used for, has min effect on FR in the time domain and impulse response will result in essentially the same harmonic content. Assuming you are using the equipment that's commercially available.

While I suspect that you are correct, it would be very interesting to see the frequency response chart of say, the HD650 with a stock cable compared to the same HD650 with one of the aftermarket cables that is supposed to make a clear difference. I wonder if we could get the folks at Headroom to run their set of graphs with an aftermarket cable?

 

[Agnostic]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Febs /img/forum/go_quote.gif Actually, if you read the other thread, you'll find many, many examples of Tourmaline making claims about something that was said in yet another thread, me asking him for the link, and him refusing to provide it.

Ah so he tried that trick before as well huh? If you have evidence you provide it, or you make an exact reference. That's sound scientific method. If you don't want to provide evidence you say you have, or refuse to make an exact reference you are basically just proving your inability to take part in a serious discussion.

I'll stop asking you to show the money Tourmaline, it seems you're not just plain broke but actually completely bankrupt.

 

[tourmaline]

This is the last time i am doing the "dirty" work for the lazy sceptics, who cannot read an entire thread but just the first and last page and state there's nothing interesting in there!


"Speaker cables and interconnects represent one of the most controversial subjects in audio/video. Do they make a difference in the quality of the signal being passed from one component to another? Are they worth the price? You will find audiophiles of all degrees of experience and expertise answering these two questions with yes's and no's. Why the controversy? At least part of the answer lies in what we have been told, rather than what we have heard for ourselves. Secondly, it is difficult to define precisely what to listen for when comparing cables, and third, any particular cable may sound quite different with one set of equipment than with another.

During the last year, we began researching some of these questions for ourselves, believing at the outset that cables probably did not make any truly noticeable improvement in sound quality. We were wrong in our assumption, and how!

Cables do make a difference, and in order to see why, it is first necessary to understand the characteristics that affect their ability to transmit a signal.

The "personality" of a cable is determined by three basic electrical properties: resistance, capacitance, and inductance. Resistance is probably the smallest factor, because cables use good conductors (copper and silver). The real culprits in cable transmission are capacitance, measured in picofarads or pF (trillionths of a farad) per foot, and inductance, measured in microhenrys (millionths of a henry) per foot.

Any time conductors are surrounded by an insulator (dielectric), capacitance occurs. You want this to happen with capacitors inside the amplifier, but not in the cables. Depending on the insulator, some of the electrical signal passing through the cable is transferred to the insulator, stored as energy (electrons), then released back into the cable where it causes a degradation in the sound quality. The type of insulator has a direct effect on the capacitance. Various insulators are used in high fidelity cables, and, in increasing quality, they are PVC, followed by polyethylene, polypropylene, and finally, Teflon, which is the best. Usually, Teflon insulated cables are the most expensive, partially because it is a difficult material to work with. Typical values of capacitance with high quality audio cables vary from 6pF to 50pF per foot. Inductance is the property of the signal in one conductor inducing current in another nearby conductor, and inhibiting current flow in the opposite direction. This is desirable in transformers, but not in cables. Since cables usually have two leads, each conducting in the opposite direction to complete the circuit, high inductance can cause the flow of current in one lead to interfere with the flow in the other lead. Inductance values for audio cables vary from about 0.1 microhenrys to 0.6 microhenrys per foot.

Some amplifiers are more sensitive than others to the load that the speaker cable places upon them. The higher the output impedance, the more likely capacitance and inductance of the cable will affect the sound quality. Tube amplifiers are probably most sensitive, since they tend to have higher output impedances (e.g., 1 Ohm) than solid state amplifiers (e.g., 0.01 Ohm). In any case, however, capacitance and inductance values are important in determining how the cables will perform in any sound system."


Cables...
inductance: 0,1 to 0,6PF = 600%
capacitance from 6 to 50MH. = 833%

Link:
http://www.hometheaterhifi.com/volume_2_1/flatln.html

 

[tourmaline]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Agnostic /img/forum/go_quote.gif Ah so he tried that trick before as well huh? If you have evidence you provide it, or you make an exact reference. That's sound scientific method. If you don't want to provide evidence you say you have, or refuse to make an exact reference you are basically just proving your inability to take part in a serious discussion. I'll stop asking you to show the money Tourmaline, it seems you're not just plain broke but actually completely bankrupt.

Don't make me laugh, the one who cannot read an entire thread. He's showing his real face here, being lazy and afraid of actually being proven wrong.

So, who's not providing now huh? The only one not providing anything usefull is you, apart from being WAY OFF TOPIC! There are other cable threads to discuss that further this thread is about something else, strange how the sceptics always turn these threads in a cable discussion!

If you refuse to read a thread, you're NOT interested!

Thought you were in bed allready.

 

[Agnostic]

Quote:

Originally Posted by tourmaline /img/forum/go_quote.gif This is the last time i am doing the "dirty" work for the lazy sceptics, who cannot read an entire thread but just the first and last page and state there's nothing interesting in there! Speaker cables and interconnects represent one of the most controversial subjects in audio/video. Do they make a difference in the quality of the signal being passed from one component to another? Are they worth the price? You will find audiophiles of all degrees of experience and expertise answering these two questions with yes's and no's. Why the controversy? At least part of the answer lies in what we have been told, rather than what we have heard for ourselves. Secondly, it is difficult to define precisely what to listen for when comparing cables, and third, any particular cable may sound quite different with one set of equipment than with another. During the last year, we began researching some of these questions for ourselves, believing at the outset that cables probably did not make any truly noticeable improvement in sound quality. We were wrong in our assumption, and how! Cables do make a difference, and in order to see why, it is first necessary to understand the characteristics that affect their ability to transmit a signal. The "personality" of a cable is determined by three basic electrical properties: resistance, capacitance, and inductance. Resistance is probably the smallest factor, because cables use good conductors (copper and silver). The real culprits in cable transmission are capacitance, measured in picofarads or pF (trillionths of a farad) per foot, and inductance, measured in microhenrys (millionths of a henry) per foot. Any time conductors are surrounded by an insulator (dielectric), capacitance occurs. You want this to happen with capacitors inside the amplifier, but not in the cables. Depending on the insulator, some of the electrical signal passing through the cable is transferred to the insulator, stored as energy (electrons), then released back into the cable where it causes a degradation in the sound quality. The type of insulator has a direct effect on the capacitance. Various insulators are used in high fidelity cables, and, in increasing quality, they are PVC, followed by polyethylene, polypropylene, and finally, Teflon, which is the best. Usually, Teflon insulated cables are the most expensive, partially because it is a difficult material to work with. Typical values of capacitance with high quality audio cables vary from 6pF to 50pF per foot. Inductance is the property of the signal in one conductor inducing current in another nearby conductor, and inhibiting current flow in the opposite direction. This is desirable in transformers, but not in cables. Since cables usually have two leads, each conducting in the opposite direction to complete the circuit, high inductance can cause the flow of current in one lead to interfere with the flow in the other lead. Inductance values for audio cables vary from about 0.1 microhenrys to 0.6 microhenrys per foot. Some amplifiers are more sensitive than others to the load that the speaker cable places upon them. The higher the output impedance, the more likely capacitance and inductance of the cable will affect the sound quality. Tube amplifiers are probably most sensitive, since they tend to have higher output impedances (e.g., 1 Ohm) than solid state amplifiers (e.g., 0.01 Ohm). In any case, however, capacitance and inductance values are important in determining how the cables will perform in any sound system. Cables... inductance: 0,1 to 0,6PF = 600% capacitance from 6 to 50MH. = 833% This is an excerpt of a website, independant, who measured different brand cables.

Finally, some reason!

Now the problem is that I never claimed that cables make no difference, I'm actually open to the idea that there are at least some qualities of interconnects that affect sound quality up to a certain point. None of my arguments however has been about interconnects. My objections were to POWER CABLES. This information is not about power cables and does not apply to power cables, because power cables are not in the signal path.

Back to the drawing board!

Anyway, you finally gave me your two cents so I guess you're not bankrupt after all.

 

[Febs]

Quote:

Originally Posted by tourmaline /img/forum/go_quote.gif BigShot actually provided the link, i pasted it into the thread but it wasn't something you liked, That's probably why you can't remember?! It was the link about the figures of differences between cables, if i recall correctly! It is still in there. read it.

Wrong. I have a very specific recollection of the times that you have failed to provide support for your statements.

The thread that you linked to previously in this thread is entitled Is copper warmer because of signal loss. In that thread, you made an assertion to the effect that some skeptics in some other locked thread claimed that they listen with measurements and not with their ears. You did not identify the prior thread that you were referring to, or the skeptics who made the alleged statement, and when I repeatedly asked you for a link to that prior statement, and you refused to provide one.

The thread that you are referring to in the post that I quoted above is a different thread called Can you tell the difference between different cables. In that thread, you quoted from an article, but you then refused to provide a link to the article, or identify its author. Both BigShot and I found the link independently when you continued to refuse to do so. Even then, the best that you could say is "This could be it."

Your pants are down. Again.


Edit: My God, in the time it took me to type that last post, you have once again quoted the very same article that you quoted in the "Can you tell the difference" thread, and you have once again quoted it without attribution, reference or a link. To save others the frustration of asking you again to support your own statement, here is the link: http://www.hometheaterhifi.com/volume_2_1/flatln.html

 

[tourmaline]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Febs /img/forum/go_quote.gif Wrong. I have a very specific recollection of the times that you have failed to provide support for your statements. The thread that you linked to previously in this thread is entitled Is copper warmer because of signal loss. In that thread, you made an assertion to the effect that some skeptics in some other locked thread claimed that they listen with measurements and not with their ears. You did not identify the prior thread that you were referring to, or the skeptics who made the alleged statement, and when I repeatedly asked you for a link to that prior statement, and you refused to provide one. The thread that you are referring to in the post that I quoted above is a different thread called Can you tell the difference between different cables. In that thread, you quoted from an article, but you then refused to provide a link to the article, or identify its author. Both BigShot and I found the link independently when you continued to refuse to do so. Even then, the best that you could say is "This could be it." Your pants are down. Again. Edit: My God, in the time it took me to type that last post, you have once again quoted the very same article that you quoted in the "Can you tell the difference" thread, and you have once again quoted it without attribution, reference or a link. To save others the frustration of asking you again to support your own statement, here is the link: http://www.hometheaterhifi.com/volume_2_1/flatln.html

Ah, but you recall Black Stuart backing me up on this one and clearly stated that what i said was true and in that specific thread.

You sceptics are just lazy and never provide any research. If any, i just read posts about "provide the link" from you febs.

I allready provided the link.
So, be carefull with your statements next time,

Your pants never where up, providing nothing substantial in any thread.

It's always the same people bursting in threads like these and turning it around. THIS thread is not about cables!

 

[tourmaline]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Agnostic /img/forum/go_quote.gif Finally, some reason! Now the problem is that I never claimed that cables make no difference, I'm actually open to the idea that there are at least some qualities of interconnects that affect sound quality up to a certain point. None of my arguments however has been about interconnects. My objections were to POWER CABLES. This information is not about power cables and does not apply to power cables, because power cables are not in the signal path. Back to the drawing board! Anyway, you finally gave me your two cents so I guess you're not bankrupt after all.

Really? Aren't you guys claiming all cables are the same?! Substitute the speakercable plugs or IC plugs for powercable plugs and we're done.

 

[chesebert]

Quote:

Originally Posted by chesebert /img/forum/go_quote.gif this would accomplish nothing. Any reasonably well made cable of a reasonable length with reasonable gauge that satisfies the application the cable is used for, has min effect on FR in the time domain and impulse response will result in essentially the same harmonic content. Assuming you are using the equipment that's commercially available. Now..then how do you measure the difference in cables? is FFT the answer? is FFT accurate enough? If you don't use FFT, then what? Do you test the cable at all fundamental frequencies? (the lumped wire model is frequency dependent) Do you test the cable with a complex frequency? Do you test the cable with frequency that's changing over time? How do you measure a system (cable as a system) that's not linear and time invariant? <- I think this is the hardest test, this actually only solves the problem of viewing cable as a filter; what about as circuit with the same non linear and time variant value for RLC? ...... I do not have the knowledge to analysis this nor know a way to test it; but maybe some one do! More questions than answers. No company will spend the money to R&D (building different cable and try to hear a difference is not R&D in my book), no intellectually component researcher will waste their time/money to solve these problem. The audio cable discussion shall forever be a back and forth bickering of believer and nonbeliever.

anyone wants to tackle the tests?

 

[tourmaline]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Febs /img/forum/go_quote.gif Wrong. I have a very specific recollection of the times that you have failed to provide support for your statements. The thread that you linked to previously in this thread is entitled Is copper warmer because of signal loss. In that thread, you made an assertion to the effect that some skeptics in some other locked thread claimed that they listen with measurements and not with their ears. You did not identify the prior thread that you were referring to, or the skeptics who made the alleged statement, and when I repeatedly asked you for a link to that prior statement, and you refused to provide one. The thread that you are referring to in the post that I quoted above is a different thread called Can you tell the difference between different cables. In that thread, you quoted from an article, but you then refused to provide a link to the article, or identify its author. Both BigShot and I found the link independently when you continued to refuse to do so. Even then, the best that you could say is "This could be it." Your pants are down. Again. Edit: My God, in the time it took me to type that last post, you have once again quoted the very same article that you quoted in the "Can you tell the difference" thread, and you have once again quoted it without attribution, reference or a link. To save others the frustration of asking you again to support your own statement, here is the link: http://www.hometheaterhifi.com/volume_2_1/flatln.html

No you are wrong, since Black Stuart backed me up, you were gone in that specific thread and now you turn up here to moan about it again.

Looks a bit very suspicous to me.......

 

[meat01]

Quote:

Cables... inductance: 0,1 to 0,6PF = 600% capacitance from 6 to 50MH. = 833%

Now can you prove these differences in measurements are actually audible?

 

[tourmaline]

Quote:

Originally Posted by meat01 /img/forum/go_quote.gif Now can you prove these differences in measurements are actually audible?

can you they don't?!

 

[meat01]

Quote:

can you they don't?!

Yes

 

[earwicker7]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Agnostic /img/forum/go_quote.gif Finally, some reason! Now the problem is that I never claimed that cables make no difference, I'm actually open to the idea that there are at least some qualities of interconnects that affect sound quality up to a certain point. None of my arguments however has been about interconnects. My objections were to POWER CABLES. This information is not about power cables and does not apply to power cables, because power cables are not in the signal path. Back to the drawing board! Anyway, you finally gave me your two cents so I guess you're not bankrupt after all.

One thing I would keep in mind is that when people first began saying that interconnects made a difference, everyone said they were crazy. Now (this is an estimate, but I think it's accurate) 90% of audiophiles have accepted that interconnects make a difference but poopoo the idea that power cables do. IMO, in 10 years, it will be the same with power cables.

I look at this holistically... from one end (the wall socket) to the other (the driver) you're dealing with an electrical signal. It's only in the last few centimeters that things fall into the mechanical realm. I don't think it's that far out to claim that the more stable, pure, or however you want to put it the electrical signal is, the more pure the sound will be.

For what it's worth, I can with complete confidence say that, with the exception of switching from bargain basement cans to high end cans, the thing that has made the most difference in my system is the Nordost Thor power supply. More than adding a headphone amp, more than listening to analog vs digital, more than switching to tubes, etc. The rest were certainly improvements, even vast improvements. But they were NOTHING compared to the level of improvement that I received from upgrading to a quality power supply. None of the previous upgrades allowed me to hear freaking echoes and reverb which I can hear now. This may not sound like a big deal, but before that I was lucky if I could say "Yeah, they had the string section somewhere over here, the choral section somewhere over here, percussionist somewhere over here" etc. After adding the Thor, I can, through the spatial cues, differentiate exactly where the different singers in the chorus are, whether the tympani is slightly to the left of the triangle player, etc. IT'S THAT BIG OF A DIFFERENCE!!!

 

[tourmaline]

lawngnome:

"Cable's make little difference".

Are you getting converted? You're going from there's no difference to "little" difference.

We must have some affect then.