Originally Posted by Febs /img/forum/go_quote.gif This article relates to measuring jitter. It has absolutely nothing at all do with cables.
Note that the parent page of the page you linked to is entitled, "Top Ten Signs an Audio Cable Vendor is Selling You Snake Oil." That page includes a section called "Bonus Scams":
Now, you cite that page as support for the proposition that "this should be the end for this pointless discussion between believer and non-believer." Yet, just a few minutes later, you procede to tell an anecdote about how your ALO Super Cotton mini to mini cable is directional:
Don't you see that you are repeatedly contradicting yourself?
Febs:
why do you involve yourself in this mess/pointlessness. you seem like a reasonable person. if you don't believe in cables, then that's fine. your opinion. not my experience. but that is irrelevant. but why involve yourself, as you don't seem like a troll like most of these other guys.
Proved that despite its huge size the CD3000 can be shoved down one's throat.
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Originally Posted by bigshot /img/forum/go_quote.gif That's simple. People *want* to be satisfied with the things they own. They *want* to think they always make the best decisions. When someone comes on this board and asks "What's the best DAP?" or "What are the best sounding cans?" do you think many people recommend something they don't own or are planning to buy themselves? A lot of them aren't really recommending something that would work well for the person asking the question, they're justifying their own purchases to themselves.
Put yourself in the cable believer's shoes. They came to this board and read some threads where people went on and on about the night and day difference between Atlas Titan Thor cables and regular old (spit!) CHEAP cables. They went to the Atlas Titan Thor website and read a bunch of technical double speak that they didn't really understand, but it all sounded good. So they clicked on "buy it now".
The cables arrived in the mail, all shiny and covered in the finest white samite. They ceremoniously placed them on their system, discarding the old "inferior" PLASTIC covered ones, and put on their best sounding CD... the classical one that they never play because they don't really like classical- they like hot mastered late 70s FM rock- but the classical one *sounds* better. "Wow! Listen to those piccolos! I can hear every frab of the oboe now!" They throw the old cables out, go back to listening to their crappy recorded hard rock, secure in the knowlege that all those overdriven peaks are being reproduced in pristine perfection.
Then they come back here and read someone saying that cables don't make a difference. Do they go back and do a direct comparison or conduct a DBT to see if there really is a difference? No. They say they don't *believe* in DBTs and direct comparisons. They get mad if someone points out that their opinion might not be based on facts. They don't want to admit the truth to themselves, even though they suspect that there really might not be a difference. As they argue, defending their position, they dig their hole deeper. They get so invested in cables making a difference, there's no way that they could admit it even if it was proven to them that they don't. There's no curse on being a cable skeptic who goes over to the other side, but you better believe that one has to eat a lot of crow to go from believer to skeptic.
If people were only fooling themselves, then a shrug and the old saying "A fool and his money are soon parted" would apply. But the problem is, to justify their cable belief, they have to proclaim it loudly and evangelically from the mountain tops. That results in MORE people coming to this board and reading threads where people go on and on about the night and day difference between Atlas Titan Thor cables and regular old (spit!) CHEAP cables.
The cycle repeats itself and the cable snake oil salesmen get richer. Like it says on the map at the zoo... "You Are Here".
See ya
Steve
Steve you made me cry man, this fragment is now saved in my PC....if I would be trying to put words is somoene's mouth, or mind, I could not be so accurate than in this case man. Paranomal, are you psychic man by any chance??? We shoud apply for the test I think....OMG!!!
That is 100% and exactly what I do beleive, thanks Steve for giving words to this idea as I would never found the right words to express it, sorry for the cable believers...and that is exactly how the human mind works...IMO and IME...
Originally Posted by vcoheda /img/forum/go_quote.gif Febs:
why do you involve yourself in this mess/pointlessness. you seem like a reasonable person. if you don't believe in cables, then that's fine. your opinion. not my experience. but that is irrelevant. but why involve yourself, as you don't seem like a troll like most of these other guys.
boredom?
It's always nice to have a calm, rationally thought out counterpoint to the inanity going on here. He's like a sane reference point.
WindowsX, you're a nice guy. But you're just starting out. There's a lot more to learn when it comes to just about everything in life. You'd do a lot better to seek out information and try to understand it for yourself, rather than grabbing at info in web searches to make a point in an internet debate that you aren't quite equipped to manage. That's friendly advice from someone who was in your shoes once, not an insult. If you'd like folks to help you understand things, just ask. Most experienced people are more than happy to share if you approach them the right way. But you have to be willing to listen and you have to try to understand, even if the info is different than what you expect. There are a million surprises in life.
vcocheda, a friendly comment for you too... Febs was reacting to the exact same thing I was. The linked article wasn't even remotely about what we were discussing. You're right that the discussion isn't going to go anywhere since one of the sides just doesn't understand the subject being discussed. But you don't have to single out Febs to tell him he doesn't have a right to comment. He obviously does know what he's talking about.
Originally Posted by vcoheda /img/forum/go_quote.gif Febs:
why do you involve yourself in this mess/pointlessness. you seem like a reasonable person. if you don't believe in cables, then that's fine. your opinion. not my experience. but that is irrelevant. but why involve yourself, as you don't seem like a troll like most of these other guys.
Sometimes I ask myself the same question!
Seriously, though, mostly I find the discussion interesting and occasionally informative. I also dislike irrational thought, and I have a tendency to react to it, so I end up getting drawn into these threads.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gabriel Possenti /img/forum/go_quote.gif Holy crap.. check this out!
Originally Posted by bigshot /img/forum/go_quote.gif That's simple. People *want* to be satisfied with the things they own. They *want* to think they always make the best decisions. When someone comes on this board and asks "What's the best DAP?" or "What are the best sounding cans?" do you think many people recommend something they don't own or are planning to buy themselves? A lot of them aren't really recommending something that would work well for the person asking the question, they're justifying their own purchases to themselves.
Put yourself in the cable believer's shoes. They came to this board and read some threads where people went on and on about the night and day difference between Atlas Titan Thor cables and regular old (spit!) CHEAP cables. They went to the Atlas Titan Thor website and read a bunch of technical double speak that they didn't really understand, but it all sounded good. So they clicked on "buy it now".
The cables arrived in the mail, all shiny and covered in the finest white samite. They ceremoniously placed them on their system, discarding the old "inferior" PLASTIC covered ones, and put on their best sounding CD... the classical one that they never play because they don't really like classical- they like hot mastered late 70s FM rock- but the classical one *sounds* better. "Wow! Listen to those piccolos! I can hear every frab of the oboe now!" They throw the old cables out, go back to listening to their crappy recorded hard rock, secure in the knowlege that all those overdriven peaks are being reproduced in pristine perfection.
Then they come back here and read someone saying that cables don't make a difference. Do they go back and do a direct comparison or conduct a DBT to see if there really is a difference? No. They say they don't *believe* in DBTs and direct comparisons. They get mad if someone points out that their opinion might not be based on facts. They don't want to admit the truth to themselves, even though they suspect that there really might not be a difference. As they argue, defending their position, they dig their hole deeper. They get so invested in cables making a difference, there's no way that they could admit it even if it was proven to them that they don't. There's no curse on being a cable skeptic who goes over to the other side, but you better believe that one has to eat a lot of crow to go from believer to skeptic.
If people were only fooling themselves, then a shrug and the old saying "A fool and his money are soon parted" would apply. But the problem is, to justify their cable belief, they have to proclaim it loudly and evangelically from the mountain tops. That results in MORE people coming to this board and reading threads where people go on and on about the night and day difference between Atlas Titan Thor cables and regular old (spit!) CHEAP cables.
The cycle repeats itself and the cable snake oil salesmen get richer. Like it says on the map at the zoo... "You Are Here".
See ya
Steve
This deserves to be quoted and quoted and quoted and quoted
Originally Posted by Sovkiller /img/forum/go_quote.gif thanks Steve for giving words to this idea as I would never found the right words to express it, sorry for the cable believers...and that is exactly how the human mind works.
Human beings aren't that hard to understand... after all, most of us are human!
Sometime, I'll fill you in on a theory I have that you might not agree with... neutrality *is* euphony.
Proved that despite its huge size the CD3000 can be shoved down one's throat.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bigshot /img/forum/go_quote.gif WindowsX, you're a nice guy. But you're just starting out. There's a lot more to learn when it comes to just about everything in life. You'd do a lot better to seek out information and try to understand it for yourself, rather than grabbing at info in web searches to make a point in an internet debate that you aren't quite equipped to manage. That's friendly advice from someone who was in your shoes once, not an insult. If you'd like folks to help you understand things, just ask. Most experienced people are more than happy to share if you approach them the right way. But you have to be willing to listen and you have to try to understand, even if the info is different than what you expect. There are a million surprises in life.
See ya
Steve
Grow up and getting older is mandatory, but to mature is optional...
IMO there are two big groups of inquisitive persons, the ones who ask because they really want to know, understand things better, and find out about different opinions, even while them, may include some opinions completely opposite of what they believe. And there are others that only ask becasue they need to confirm one more time, what they are 100% sure of, regardless of being right or wrong...in the first case the conversation is a pleasure, and could be really interesting, and you cna learn a lot, on the second case the conversation is a waste of time...
Proved that despite its huge size the CD3000 can be shoved down one's throat.
Joined
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Originally Posted by bigshot /img/forum/go_quote.gif Human beings aren't that hard to understand... after all, most of us are human!
Sometime, I'll fill you in on a theory I have that you might not agree with... neutrality *is* euphony.
See ya
Steve
I'm all ears...and maybe it is, as a concept. But I can tell you, that if it is, then it is not the same concept I have heard of what neutrality in known here.
My point behind this quote in my signature, is that is really hard to determine how a recording really sounds like, even if you made it, there are always elements beyond your control, that will attempt against the accuracy of the result....and then what pisses my off, is that intead of saying "I like the way this or that sounds" or this or that sonds like in real life, etc...They begin with the BS of neutrality, and accuracy...maybe I got the concepts wrong, who knows!!! But IMO in order to know if something is accurate or neutral, in the first instance you need to know how it is supposed to sound ideally...and that IMO is always an X to find...
Anyway it will be really good to hear that, a real shame that you live so far...a couple of Jacky D's listening those "old bad rock recordings from the 70's" in my Editions and RPX-33 will be not that bad...
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