[Zarathustra19]

Digital, I think what you're saying is pretty true in most cases. Finding the right kind of music for yourself does not involve listening to what others find good. Popular music is not always good music, in most cases, it's the crappiest music out there, and when you dig deep beneath the surface and discover new bands without MTV, VH1, or the almighty Radio telling you what to listen to, you can find all kinds of audible bliss. Thats not to say that some popular music isn't good, but the Akons, Fifty Cents, Justin Timberlakes, and Kelly Clarksons of the world should indicate that for the most part, the music that becomes a fad is ridiculous and frivolous. Lets not forget, though, that some indie things can be really crappy as well. Take Joanna Newsom, I was told that her album "Ys" was the best indie album of the year. No. Absolutely not. IMO the best indie album of the year was Midlake's "The Trials of Van Occupanther". And this brings us down to the fundamental problem of a single, combined music forum. People like different things. And when they try to argue which band/person they think is better, feelings get hurt, rash things get said, and people leave still holding on to what they think is the best music in the world. Be it Black Metal, Indie Pop, Mainstream Rock, or Rap, everyone is right about the best music for them.

 

[GlendaleViper]

Like most things in my life, my tastes in music are polarized between:

a) Challenging, deep music that takes patience, understanding and dedication to fully enjoy.

b) Schlock. The musical equivalent to the B-movie.

Also like most things in my life, I could give a sweet rat's behind about what other people think at large. I try to find a common ground with other music fans and then run with (and give out) recommendations from there.

I will say one thing - Art is NOT 100% subjective. There IS such a thing as bad music (though you may still like it - I know I enjoy listening to a few terrible bands). Centuries of theory and technique have been developed and redeveloped countless times to come up with structural formats to transform sound into music.

If you do or don't like something that someone else doesn't or does like, who friggin' cares? The handy thing about broadcast devices prone to massive amounts of garbage output like TVs and Radios is a little switch that says "power".

One last thing: One should not speculate on hype when one gets their music from the big hype machine.

 

[Digitalbath3737]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Coltrane /img/forum/go_quote.gif Ah, there we go. There are few absolutes in life, but one of those is the Beatles. To say 'they are nothing special' means that by necessity you like a key amount of maturity or understanding of the basic components of music. If you continue to like music, and you continue to seek to grow as a person, you will become a Beatles fan. Go ahead, roll those eyes and get all mad. If you think they are nothing but throwaway pop music like Mariah Carey or Akon then there is absolutely no doubt that you do not understand their music. This isn't just some arrogant personal opinions, there are millions of reasons and billions of people that can go in depth on the musical reasons for the Beatles genius and their importance. There isn't an album you own that wasn't influenced by the Beatles (at least albums that have been produced since 1965 or so.)

I don't like the Beatles and don't think they are anything great. That's my opinion and I'm entitled to it. Last time I checked there wasn't a requirement or some check list to see if you qualify as a lover of music. Of course if these requirements make you and people like you feel high and mighty then so be it. Since you appreciate the Beatles then here's your official "music lover badge." I'll continue loving and appreciating music that I actually love and appreciate. You may want to look down upon and throw people out of the music lover category, but it's my ears and my musical experience. May be if you grow as a person you'll come to realize that there is no check list to enjoying and loving music.

That's good that the Beatles and other "Greats" influence music I listen to. Because their influence actually created something that I do like and appreciate. The Hip Hop music I listen to was influenced by funk and disco. Do I like or appreciate disco? I defiantly don't like disco (save a few songs) but I do appreciate the influence, just not the genre itself. I feel the same way about "The Greats".

Quote:

Originally Posted by Coltrane /img/forum/go_quote.gif No. Because his music sucks. But I do know why it sucks. You don;t have to enjoy everything. I know why Bach is amazing, but I still rarely listen to his music. Is he overhyped because I don't like them? Of course not. Are the Beatles overhyped because you don't like them? Of course not.

I know why I feel the Beatles suck. So yes they are over hyped to me. If you want to judge what's over hyped to me just because you like it, then yes you are being arrogant. Who are you to say you know more about what pleases my ears and touches me musically?


Quote:

Originally Posted by Coltrane /img/forum/go_quote.gif 1. The music you think is crap today might not always be the music you think is crap. 2. Nobody suggested to listen to music just to have others respect you, and less people than you might think like 'indie bands' to seem cool. Keep listening to the 'greats' because people who love and know music love it as well, and maybe eventually you might too. I, as well as many many others, could give you a list a mile long of bands that we heard others say were good for years before we ever to the time and effort to listen to them. Bands like Radiohead, Tool, and even the Beatles were, for me, at one time unlistenable. Its a big world, and there is too much great stuff to be angry about some band's popularity.

Sure it's a given that my musical taste change as time goes on. No one would deny that. I didn't even try to so why bring it up again? Maybe one day I'll throw out all my rock and electronic albums and listen to classical. Who knows? It's useless to argue about, if one day I'll like "The Greats" because I have no idea and unless your some kinda all knowing god you have no clue either. So why do you insist on acting like you know all of my musical history present past and future?

Perhaps you missed totally the point of my thread. Because you've gone on some BS crusade. I could care less how popular a band is. I love Tool, Deftones, Kelly Clarkson, Bjork, Massive Attack, Alicia Keys, Dave Matthews Band... the list goes on. So were did you get in your head that I'm shunning groups or getting angry because of there popularity? Let me clear things up for you because your just imagining stuff now.

There are certain phrases that people use to hype up an album. When they use those phrases I avoid the album because it's obviously hype. Through personal experience I've learned to avoid albums with those those phrases attached to them. In my experience there are two groups that come with those phrase attached and I described those groups in my OP. And you proved a point of mine, when I said that if you dare say you don't like one of "The Greats" then the so called music lovers will tell you you don't appreciate music. Like clock work every time.

No where did I mention I don't like a group because of their popularity. As I've said before, I'll listen to what I enjoy because there are no requirements to love music as you keep suggesting. I'm not attempting to be part of some elite group. To me the truest music lover is a person who listens to what they enjoy and won't close their hearts to music without first giving it a chance. I don't think a true music lover would actually try and force music on themselves. So despite your constant insisting that I listen to the greats (or else I do not truly appreciate music) I'll think and listen for myself, thank you very much.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Coltrane /img/forum/go_quote.gif I don't know if I have an opinion as far as overhyped. I know there are quite a bit of artists who are considered great for the wrong reasons, or are considered great because people are not aware of how much they are stealing from their influences. But for the most part, genuinely crappy music is bashed and rarely overhyped. Akon for example certainly doesn't receive much hype from people who actually matter. If you think music is subjective, who are you to determine whether something is overhyped though?

Quite honestly the only person "that matters" is me. I do not judge how the music sounds or feels to me because of "people that matter". That's pretty pathetic if you need "people that matter" to validate your opinion of music. Who am I to judge if music is over hyped? That's easy, I'm the person in my body listening to the music. I have every right to judge what is over hyped to my ears. I have no right to tell you what your opinion is or should be (as you've been trying to do to me throughout this thread). This isn't a "We'll you don't like the Greats then you don't appreciate music" thread. If you want to do that then create your own thread. I'm more interested in hearing about peoples personal experience with hype rather than debating with you something that is subjective and a personal opinion.

 

[GlendaleViper]

Digital, take a step back and read your comments. You have some good points, but your incessant "counterattacks" on Coltrane (who is NOT being high-and-mighty but instead engaging in intelligent discourse prompted by the thread you started) are knee-jerks to an honest challenge.

You have to see some irony in your defensive reactions here, no?

 

[Digitalbath3737]

Quote:

Originally Posted by GlendaleViper /img/forum/go_quote.gif I will say one thing - Art is NOT 100% subjective. There IS such a thing as bad music (though you may still like it - I know I enjoy listening to a few terrible bands). Centuries of theory and technique have been developed and redeveloped countless times to come up with structural formats to transform sound into music.

I agree with that mostly. I know I have a good number of horrible artist in my collection. Still love it and enjoy it, but there's no denying that it's bad. Of course I think reggae is bad music, pure noise to my ears.. there's many that would argue with me about that.

Quote:

Originally Posted by GlendaleViper /img/forum/go_quote.gif One last thing: One should not speculate on hype when one gets their music from the big hype machine.

LOL is that in reference to my iPod?

I've never bought a single song off iTunes cause drm sucks and I prefer mp3. I get my music from emusic (#1 source now) and amazon (use occasionally). I think iTunes is the best way to organize music but a BS store. Thank god you don't have to use it.

 

[GlendaleViper]

Heheheh - I was referring to MTV. Was just trying to be cheeky.

 

[Digitalbath3737]

Quote:

Originally Posted by GlendaleViper /img/forum/go_quote.gif Digital, take a step back and read your comments. You have some good points, but your incessant "counterattacks" on Coltrane (who is NOT being high-and-mighty but instead engaging in intelligent discourse prompted by the thread you started) are knee-jerks to an honest challenge. You have to see some irony in your defensive reactions here, no?

I take great offense to people saying I don't appreciate music when I know I do. His conversation stopped being intelligent as soon as he pulled the age BS out and started saying I don't appreciate music. He's also assuming that I'm angry because of a groups popularity and hinting that I'm some indie snob. When I've said nothing of that. He may be able to throw his insults in a less obvious manner than I can, however I'm not the type to beat around the bush or the type to let an insult slide. Telling someone they don't appreciate music is very arrogant. The conversation could have continued nicely without insults.

But maybe I'm wrong and telling someone they don't appreciate music, aren't mature enough to grasp something and making baseless claims isn't insulting and does have it's place in an intelligent conversation. Maybe he wasn't saying those things to be arrogant and offensive, however that's how it comes off. When personalities and views clash unfortunately you get the BS that's been going on in this thread. Not how I wanted it end up.

 

[Digitalbath3737]

Quote:

Originally Posted by GlendaleViper /img/forum/go_quote.gif Heheheh - I was referring to MTV. Was just trying to be cheeky.

MTV doesn't play music any more! lol

 

[TheAnomaly]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Digitalbath3737 /img/forum/go_quote.gif I take great offense to people saying I don't appreciate music when I know I do. His conversation stopped being intelligent as soon as he pulled the age BS out and started saying I don't appreciate music. He's also assuming that I'm angry because of a groups popularity and hinting that I'm some indie snob. When I've said nothing of that. He may be able to throw his insults in a less obvious manner than I can, however I'm not the type to beat around the bush or the type to let an insult slide. Telling someone they don't appreciate music is very arrogant. The conversation could have continued nicely without insults. But maybe I'm wrong and telling someone they don't appreciate music, aren't mature enough to grasp something and making baseless claims isn't insulting and does have it's place in an intelligent conversation. Maybe he wasn't saying those things to be arrogant and offensive, however that's how it comes off. When personalities and views clash unfortunately you get the BS that's been going on in this thread. Not how I wanted it end up.

the problem with all of this is that Coltrane didn't intend to insult you, but you did intend to insult him. and when you talk about arrogance and how you despise it so much, it would be a good idea to watch out for sentences like this:

Quote:

Quite honestly the only person "that matters" is me. I do not judge how the music sounds or feels to me because of "people that matter". That's pretty pathetic if you need "people that matter" to validate your opinion of music.

of course you are the only person who knows what you like, but you can convey that in a less strident manner. it seems like you have issues with people critiquing what you like and what you view as important, which is fine, but the internet is the ultimate cultural and point-of-view marketplace, and people will disagree with you. please try to keep it more civil.

 

[GlendaleViper]

All I'm saying is a challenge is not an attack. And in the context of the OP, it's seems counterintuitive to get defensive at a challenge.

 

[Digitalbath3737]

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheAnomaly /img/forum/go_quote.gif the problem with all of this is that Coltrane didn't intend to insult you, but you did intend to insult him. and when you talk about arrogance and how you despise it so much, it would be a good idea to watch out for sentences like this: of course you are the only person who knows what you like, but you can convey that in a less strident manner. it seems like you have issues with people critiquing what you like and what you view as important, which is fine, but the internet is the ultimate cultural and point-of-view marketplace, and people will disagree with you. please try to keep it more civil.

The first time he brought up the age thing I spoke my disgust about it. I accepted his explanation that he didn't mean it insultingly originally, then he did it again! Why would he bring it up a second time after knowing it offends me? By saying I lack maturity and understanding of music? I'm a bit confused at why you're defending that. Why would someone say something they already knows offends the person, unless they intend on offending them?

I could have put that comment in a different way, that's true. Though that's how I feel. I won't deny it. I never have believed in the whole "people that matter" crap. The only reason why those people matter is 1)because you want to be like them 2)Because they hold the same view as you. Neither holds much ground imo. Just reminds me so much of a High school mentality.

I have very little problem with people criticizing my view. I actually enjoy it when people do. That's how I learn. We can't walk around this world believing we have all the answers. Right now I'm listening to a Rap album because people decided to criticize my view. 'Cause of them Hip Hop went from my least favorite genre one of my favorites. So I greatly enjoy people challenging views I hold dear to me. It helps me grow as a person. I just expect people to keep a certain level of respect in doing so. If I say something insults me then I expect that person to respect me and not bring it up again. I won't listen to someone who can't show basic respect.

Quote:

Originally Posted by GlendaleViper /img/forum/go_quote.gif All I'm saying is a challenge is not an attack. And in the context of the OP, it's seems counterintuitive to get defensive at a challenge.

I have no problem that he holds different views than mines and is challenging my views. I knew that someone would challenge my views. There's actually a few people on here that I wanted to address but got wrapped up in that BS.

 

[Thelonious Monk]

Trout Mask Replica by Captain Beefheart. it's a joke. seriously. i'm pretty sure Don Van Vilet said it himself. this review sums up my feelings about the record pretty well:

Quote:

Don't Fall for This. I bought it used for $2 and at first I thought the problem was that the previous owner had scratched it up. This album is the why "The Emperor's New Clothes" was written. The same people who like this also claim to like Finnegan's Wake (it's a book). This is not music; it's noise. The Captain himself has even said in interviews it was a joke pulled off on the public. Of the 28 tracks here only 2 ("The Blimp" and "Veteran's Day Poppy" even approach listenable.) It is useful for ending a party that's gotten out of hand or for getting back at your neighbors with barking dogs (I'd rather hear the dogs). Yes there are a lot of glowing reviews of this so maybe I'm wrong but I've played this for high school classes, college roomies, big time music fans, casual listeners and just about anyone who will let me. I either get looks of shock from these people or howls of laughter. When I tell them about all the glowing reviews they refuse to believe me. I've actually won money betting people that it had at least a 3 star rating on sites like Amazon. Wretched noise. WARNING: if you want people to think your I.Q. is over 180 you'll have to pretend to like it. Seriously (and I really mean it), you know those magic art things they used to sell in the malls that when you looked at them with your eyes crossed or whatever you'd suddenly see an incredible three dimensional spaceship or something. Well I never ever did see anything in those, I tried every time I walked by one of those kiosks. I'd cross my eyes I'd try to focus behind it, in front of it, whatever. I never did see anything but a blurry jumble of lines. Now, I truly believe there is something there, because a lot of people I trust and respect have told me they can see it and I don't think my life is any worse for not having seen it. It's the same with this album: I try crossing my ears, listenting behind it, listening through it, listening when I'm in the shower, I just can't hear it, no matter how I try (I don't take drugs or drink--so that might hamper me). I honestly think most people that hear this will be with me on this, but if you decide to give it a listen, don't say I didn't warn you if you decide to use the CD as a coaster. Actually, the above review doesn't tell you anything; here is a review in the spirit of the album: Glrbbb, boom boom yickle. Tick tock snooker ball. %#tony 13 slamdma tinkleface. Your slmmmiking tonka snotsnortprobpot. Yinkyop Dr $#u$$, qwertyuiop typwewriter snick. jibberjabberjobber. Slrnnnkul. dooby dooby scooob. Kcil ym. Jingle Jangle afternoon. %@#??????. Toby, toobn. YELLSHOUTHOLLERWHISPER. FAIRIES FINKLU=EMC^2. Strip my theory. j86hy. Boink!!!!! If you think that's a brilliant review, you'll love the album (no kidding). A few of you are reading all the brilliant reviews here and thinking, this is for me. I am telling you to stop now! You don't even need to hear this for curiosity's sake. Would you say "Bloody Mary" in a dark bathroom 6 times at midnight? If you buy it you can send me a private message and I promise not to say I told you so. It's so bad I'm thinking of making this the only 1/2 record in my ratings and raising everything else up to at least 2 stars.

from rateyourmusic.com

 

[MdRex]

Quote:

WARNING: if you want people to think your I.Q. is over 180 you'll have to pretend to like it. I don't take drugs or drink--so that might hamper me

Made me lol... I am listen to clips of the album on amazon... out of curiosity.

 

[Thelonious Monk]

another thing: i enjoy a lot of stuff from The Beatles. i think that Sgt. Pepper's Lonely Hearts Club Band, sans a few tracks, is a really boring album. am i alone here? it just doesn't grab me. again, a rateyourmusic.com review sort of explains my feelings: the one by ozzystylez.

 

[goldenratiophi]

Now that we're back on overratedness and not a flame war...

1. Captain Beefheart. I too can't listen to him for very long.
2. Pink Floyd - The Wall. I guess it's not a bad album, but for being the highest selling PF album in the US, I'd much prefer to listen to Piper, Meddle, Dark Side, Wish, or Animals. The Wall just seems too long and whiny.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thelonious Monk /img/forum/go_quote.gif another thing: i enjoy a lot of stuff from The Beatles. i think that Sgt. Pepper's Lonely Hearts Club Band, sans a few tracks, is a really boring album. am i alone here? it just doesn't grab me. again, a rateyourmusic.com review sort of explains my feelings: the one by ozzystylez.

Finally, more people who don't worship Sgt. Pepper! Sgt. Pepper is obviously very influential, and IMO since all of its new and experimental elements have been incorporated into almost all modern music, when I go back and listen to Sgt. Pepper it just doesn't sound fresh or imaginative. I'm sure I'd feel differently if I grew up in the 60s, but compared to what's groundbreaking now, Sgt. Pepper just feels kinda boring. I liked it the first few times I listened to it ("Wow, it's Rolling Stone Magazine's greatest album ever!"), but the shine wore off quickly for me.

I do really love Magical Mystery Tour though.