Output capacitors (almost) everywhere
Apr 13, 2021 at 8:15 AM Thread Starter Post #1 of 10

Setmagic

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Hey,
I am beginner DIY audio enthusiast.
I found that all my audio stuff from factor have some output protection capacitors. And I realize that, they affecting sound so much.
It's always better to remove them.

Without them sound goes more vivid, natural and have a lot of space, even bass goes deeper and it's more precise.

Main question is. This is some kind of protection needed to achive RoHs or CE standard for selling on global market?
I know danger there is still possibility to damage something when accidently create shortcut in audio. But sound is so much better.
 
Apr 13, 2021 at 10:13 AM Post #2 of 10
Hey,
I am beginner DIY audio enthusiast.
I found that all my audio stuff from factor have some output protection capacitors. And I realize that, they affecting sound so much.
It's always better to remove them.

Without them sound goes more vivid, natural and have a lot of space, even bass goes deeper and it's more precise.

Main question is. This is some kind of protection needed to achive RoHs or CE standard for selling on global market?
I know danger there is still possibility to damage something when accidently create shortcut in audio. But sound is so much better.
I don't doubt that sound is better without the capacitors, but capacitors in the signal line are protecting against DC voltage, which can burn out your headphones, your speakers, perhaps any device you choose to connect after those capacitors. Most tube amps start out with a positive bias voltage and if capacitors are not on the output, you could expose your equipment to hundreds of volts of DC - not a good thing - at all. OTL tube amps MUST be made this way. In fact, many are provided with a relay-delay circuit on the output connection, because despite the capacitors blocking DC on the output, those capacitors need time to charge when turning the amp on, otherwise, DC passes right through. This is bad and destructive enough that the few seconds it takes to charge the output capacitors is long enough to blow out speakers and headphones, if left plugged in.

Output transformer-coupled tube amplifiers need no capacitors on the output, but sometimes have inter-stage capacitors ahead of the transformer connection, where the capacitors do not have as much effect on the sound quality. Further, inter-stage capacitors can be made much smaller. Thus, much higher-quality film caps can be used, as opposed to the clunky, bad-sounding electrolytics required on the output of an OTL tube amp. This is because bass is filtered out by the RC circuit that's formed and if the capacitance or resistance is not large enough, that bass filtering occurs in the audible band. With output transformers, the inter-stage capacitors are seeing a resistance of 10,000 ohms or more at the transformers, a big difference from the 32 - 300 ohms typical for headphones (or 4-8 ohm speakers!).

In many high-voltage tube amps, capacitors also protect Human Safety in case of unpredictable failures that occur in the circuit.

At the inputs, capacitors are often placed to block DC from less-than-cleanly designed devices (see paragraph above for consequences without). This protects the device from DC damage if a cheap source with DC on the output is connected. Here in DIY, we rarely build anything with input capacitors - mostly because we know what we are connecting and usually have the tools to check if there is a DC offset on the device plugging in.

Output capacitors in non-tube amps are a different story. The fundamental reason they are used is that it's quite difficult to build an amplification circuit, without feedback, that has no DC offset. Sometimes you can make it work by very closely matching the parts to eliminate DC offset. This is often trial and error and is hugely labor intensive. You can get custom work this way, but probably no mfr will do it. The other is to use a servo device to zero the offset. These circuits are usually made with fast-responding opamps wired up to zero out the voltage. However, they can be expensive, unstable, and can also have an effect on sound quality. The standard fallback is feedback, which is actually how the servo works in the first place. Some people think feedback effects sound quality, too.

So ... there you are. It's not so easy to eliminate capacitors in the signal path
 
Apr 13, 2021 at 5:40 PM Post #3 of 10
Thank You @tomb for such complex answer with explanation!
I guess I'm so far quite lucky.

My next step will be changing capacitors to best possible low ESR for Kemet, Murata.
I have some equipment to read parameters from this.

Will be good too change oscilators and power rail transistors to some nice Texas Instruments instead "no-name" ones on PCB.
 
Apr 14, 2021 at 12:38 AM Post #4 of 10
Thank You @tomb for such complex answer with explanation!
I guess I'm so far quite lucky.

My next step will be changing capacitors to best possible low ESR for Kemet, Murata.
I have some equipment to read parameters from this.

Will be good too change oscilators and power rail transistors to some nice Texas Instruments instead "no-name" ones on PCB.

ESR is basically meaningless in terms of audio. I will caveat that by saying that if you have a capacitor with a particularly high ESR value, then that is a separate problem that needs to be addressed. Generally speaking though, most caps will have decently low ESR and there are other factors that are more important to pay attention to.

The first thing I would be double checking is the size of the capacitor. A lot of companies will cheap out and put undersized capacitors in their gear. A lot of times your amplifier is configured in such a way that your output cap and your headphones form a high pass filter. If you have an undersized cap, you will loose a lot of bass performance. Doing the math on the capacitor and double checking the fundamental engineering of the amplifier should be your first step.
 
Apr 14, 2021 at 1:50 AM Post #5 of 10
@Tjj226 Angel
Thank You, I will follow your guidelines.

I don't have schematics of player and amp.
This is PCB picture (from Head-Fi forum)
49806309374ec7109e5f-01.jpeg
This is DIY-friendly garage mede Chinese Zishan (HeShi JinYan) stuff. Design is really good especially for the price and people recommend change parts like caps and stuff to best possible ones.
So far I removed output caps (this 2 big blue ones),
Changed LPF to opa1612 and Gain to Burson V5i.

There is no list for other components I DAC read. This devices have a lot of variants and revisions. Every single one can bring some changes in rail so I must do my own investigation.

More like reverse engineering. It's difficult for me, because I will be using mesuments equipment first time as well as disemble SMD from PCB for that serious project. And pay attention which ~2mm thing goes where.

Just checking and ordering a caps from good quality lineup of well known famous producer will be good enough?
 
Jul 1, 2021 at 1:24 PM Post #6 of 10
You may like the Nichicon UES-series. They're the bright green bipolar ones. I agree with the previous comment that blindly removing capacitors can be a recipe for trouble.

Tom
 
Jul 4, 2021 at 1:45 PM Post #9 of 10
:scream:
 

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