[conquerator2]

I think I know why: the main competition is (IMHO) the Audez LCD2, in the US that headphone is $1145, which translates to £684.81.  Of course we would never see that price since the LCD2 is made in America and we would have to factor Import duty and VAT into the equation.  Because of that the UK price, from a UK dealer, of the LCD2 is £1025.  The HiFMans are also competition but are also US based so, again, there's no local alternative.  They're price matching to planars that what we can get in the UK (all imported from America) and the price has nothing to do with import duty or VAT; pretty $hitty I think.

Can't you buy them somewhere else in Europe?
Pretty sure Hifiman are available in EU in the $=€ currency, sometimes even less. Audeze was hard to find for reasonable prices that is true and so is Oppo.
Regardless, won't derail the thread any further. I am just throwing it out here.

 

[Jay_WJ]

There have been so many times these so called flagship headphones just failed to deliever for asking price.

It is just people got a lot smarter and finally respect objective measurements, which is actually very good thing and need to happen a lot more often.

 
That is very true. Audio enthusiasts are getting smarter and smarter these days, thanks to a lot of information contributed by even smarter people. ^^

 

[olegausany]

And because of such people thread gets locked and really useful information is difficult to find

 
With all due respect, it doesnt get locked b/c of posts like that.   It gets lost b/c some people find anything except cheerleader posts objectionable, and start getting defensive/upset and THAT ends up derailing the thread.    
 
More and more, it seems that stating anything negative or against popular opinion is becoming less tolerated here.   No one seems to mind when 20 people chime and say "ooh, this headphone is going to ROCK" - yet all it takes is 2 people to point out some flaw in measurement or whatever, and people seem to get upset or hurt or start bemoaning the increase in noise in the thread.
 
I dont know about you, but if someone knowledgable about measurements is providing his/her thoughts on how those measurements relate to reality, it isnt "useless information".   It is probably a little more concrete than half the reviews I read here, most of which seem to be coming from deep within Placeboland (which is fine - nothing wrong with that, but let's not make that the ONLY way to evaluate products).
 
I have a PM1 on delivery and I dont find anything objectionable about someone commenting on the measurements and how they might affect sound quality.  In fact, I welcome such comments, as it gives me something to test for, when i get them.
 
My suggestion would be to take the negative comments as well as the positive comments as data points, and then make your own decision.   But let's not get to the point where anything other than pure subjective praise is decried or shouted down. 
 
YMMV, of course.  
 
 

The problem is that people look into the measurements without trying headphones first. Always try headphones first make observation and only then look for measurements to see if they confirm what you find out. Always trust your ears

 

[Jay_WJ]

The problem is that people look into the measurements without trying headphones first. Always try headphones first make observation and only then look for measurements to see if they confirm what you find out. Always trust your ears

 
Let's not make this yet another instance of subjective vs objective arguments. The point is, IMO, that a pair of $1000 headphones should excel both in measurements AND in subjective impressions. Of course, no headphones can satisfy ALL people's subjective preference, but it is possible to do most people.

 

[meetoo1]

Got a chance to view these in person today and try them out.  I think most people will be very happy with the sound quality of these cans.  I thought they sounded perfect, maybe a little warm... which is perfect for my taste.  The bass, mids, and highs all sounded very good to me.  I plan to buy an pair after I return from vacation in a few weeks.

 

[Claritas]

I asked a OPPO U.K. dealer why the huge price difference.....she said that she couldn't comment on the US price. ( She also said, they would have limited stock at the end of the month. )
I won't be buying, on a matter of principle !!

That's a little like Sean Connery's saying he won't set foot in Scotland so long as it's part of Britain. (He lives in Jamaica.)

 

[HasturTheYellow]

  Got a chance to view these in person today and try them out.  I think most people will be very happy with the sound quality of these cans.  I thought they sounded perfect, maybe a little warm... which is perfect for my taste.  The bass, mids, and highs all sounded very good to me.  I plan to buy an pair after I return from vacation in a few weeks.

 
With the portability and easy-to-drive nature of the PM-1 in mind, wouldn't it be best to purchase the PM-1 now and take it on vacation with you? *evil money spending grin*

 

[meetoo1]

   
With the portability and easy-to-drive nature of the PM-1 in mind, wouldn't it be best to purchase the PM-1 now and take it on vacation with you? *evil money spending grin*

Unfortunately I can't afford them right now.  If they were $100, sure.  But they are $100 + $1000.  And I'm going backpacking, so space and weight are very important while on my vaca.  And they did feel pretty light, but not light enough for backpacking

 

[purrin]

The problem is that people look into the measurements without trying headphones first. Always try headphones first make observation and only then look for measurements to see if they confirm what you find out. Always trust your ears

 
Good points. One thing I'd like to add: consider the source of the measurements, the history and the overall body of work of the person doing them, and if there are other measurements to use as a relative reference. But this is HF where everything and anything if it can be taken the wrong way, will be.
 
It turns out that the pair I heard were the second or later beta. (my subjective impressions are buried somewhere on HF in this thread I think.) Depending upon who you talk to, the production models are better or worse than the pair I heard. There is where measurements can be beneficial, especially when used to denote relative differences. Unfortunately, I have no such measurements.
 
P.S. Measurements above ~12kHz for headphones (Tyll's, GE's, Sonoves, mine, etc.) tend to be unreliable or all over the place. Too difficult to correlate "air" with headphone measurements. It's just the nature of things. Not even worth talking about the measurements. Better to use ears to judge "air".

 

[bbutterworth]

I wanted to respond to some of the comments made here about the About.com Stereos measurements. I think too much has been made of the distortion I found in the Oppo PM-1 at 100 dBA.
 
I have measured 174 headphones at last count, and with about half of those, I also had some of Sound & Vision's writing staff do subjective testing of the headphones. Only in the most extreme cases did measured distortion correlate well with listener impressions. Usually that was with products such as cheap noise cancelling headphones, which sometimes do have audible distortion problems. I have only very rarely heard panelists complain of distortion problems with headphones at even fairly loud levels. I have measured numerous headphones with higher distortion on this test than I measured from the PM-1, and heard no complaints from listeners.
 
A test level of 100 dBA is very loud; I can listen to it, but I don't like to listen to it. And of course that level will vary at different frequencies due to the response of the headphone. So it might be as high as 110 dB or so with a particular sine wave frequency. (Even higher if a headphone has unusually large peaks and dips in the frequency response.) I chose this level because it's one that allows me to objectively differentiate the output capabilities of headphones. It's somewhat like CEA-2010 subwoofer tests. Almost no one pushes a subwoofer to 120 dB, but we have to push the subs to that level in order to measure differences in output capability.
 
I'm reluctant to judge any headphone by its measurements, or even to say what a "good" measurement is. There are a few I've measured that are clearly bad, with huge peaks and dips in FR, very high distortion, high sensitivity to amplifier output impedance, etc. But otherwise, I've so far seen at best an occasional correlation between listener perception and headphone measurements. And that's with frequency response. CEA-2010 perhaps excepted, our understanding of audio transducer distortion measurement and how it correlates to listener perceptions is at a relatively primitive stage. This is part of the reason why we don't see a lot of published audio transducer distortion measurements.
 
Based on what I've heard of the PM-1 (soon to be published on About.com Stereos -- shameless plug), there are good reasons why you might choose the PM-1 over a competitor or a competitor over the PM-1, but distortion isn't one of them.

 

[purrin]

Can you guys also take THD measurements at 85, 87, or 90dbA? That level is more reflective of a normal listening situation - at least with the transient peaks. Also the THD graph should probably be presented with a log scale on the Y axis and go down to 0.001% or even lower. The THD measurement as it is (a straight 0 to 50%) lacks granularity. It's basically useless unless something is seriously wrong. Taking these steps will improve the usability and allow us to better correlate measurements with subjective experience.
 
As far as the high distortion ~5% at 200-300Hz at 100db, and just thinking out loud, will that be an indicator of highish distortion, say 1-2% at 90db? The PM-1 had good FR to my ears, similar to my reference speaker system. However it's weakness was muddy slow bass, lack of clarity, a lowfi-sh quality (I am exaggerating here to illustate a point / make differentiation) etc. These can often be a sign of highish distortion in the upper bass area.

 

[Frank I]

 Brent thanks for the explanation. Looking forward to your take as well.

 

[jerg]

I agree, measuring THD at 100 dB is not only measuring distortion levels, but also the drivers' power-handling abilities. Some drivers just handle power with more control than others, and you could have a perfectly-behaving driver at 85 dB that goes all out of whack at 100 dB.

 

[purrin]

That would be Grado drivers. They don't like to be pushed hard.

 

[jerg]

  That would be Grado drivers. They don't like to be pushed hard.

In the bass region? 99% of dynamic drivers, really.
 
Edit: ok maybe not 99%. Still, a lot if its at 100 dB.