[Romanee]

Quote:

Originally Posted by gdg It is indeed just supposed to "scale the volume" and that's how Ipod literature describes it: Setting Songs to Play at the Same Volume Level iTunes can automatically adjust the volume of songs, so they play at the same relative volume level. You can set iPod to use the iTunes volume settings. I would be very annoyed if compression was used because that's a very different process and should be described as such.

To clarify: dynamics in music means the range from very soft/quiet to very loud, or from pianissimo to sforzando, or from ppppp to fffff, etc.. To say that Sound Check or any other routine "scales the volume" so that everything plays at the same relative volume means that it compresses the dynamic range, or that the resulting "same volume music" has a very limited dynamic range. It has nothing to do with compression schemes, such as that used in mp3.

 

[gdg]

This debate raged over at the Tact forum a couple of years ago. There are some very knowledgeable people over there including a couple of Engineering Phds. It was pointed out to me that audio "compression" affects both maximum and mininum audio levels. ie raising the minimums and lowering the maximums. Otherwise volume control/ attenuation of any kind would simply be called compression. TV commercials use compression to get around broadcasting regulations that limit the extreme volume changes that advertisers favour to get your attention. If you've noticed, commercials definitely "appear" to get louder. They simply use compression to raise the average sound level while keeping the "peaks" within regulation. They are certainly not just turning down the volume.

 

[Febs]

Quote:

Originally Posted by gdg Problem is that I don't use the MP3 format. Never have, never will. Let me put that another way... Never ever have, never never never never ever will. I'm not sure how you can talk about the audio quality of the Ipod "soundcheck" feature being crap and use the words MP3 in the same breath. (note I was inquiring about audio quality, not over functionality)

Because with modern encoders, MP3 can achieve transparency with most listeners. I'm curious (and this is a genuine curiosity so please don't take this as a flame) how you can judge the quality of MP3 if you have never used it?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Romanee To clarify: dynamics in music means the range from very soft/quiet to very loud, or from pianissimo to sforzando, or from ppppp to fffff, etc.. To say that Sound Check or any other routine "scales the volume" so that everything plays at the same relative volume means that it compresses the dynamic range, or that the resulting "same volume music" has a very limited dynamic range.

No, it does not mean that at all. Replaygain and mp3gain simply scale the volume so that any particular track (or album, if you're using replaygain's album gain mode) has the same apparent average volume level as any other. This does not compress the dynamic range of a track (or album) one bit. If the song has a 20dB dynamic range before applying replaygain, it will have a 20dB dynamic range after applying replaygain. It does not act as a compressor/limiter.

I suppose that if you were to disable the clipping prevention mechanisms in replaygain, and force it to scale a song so that the peaks are above 0dB, the hard clipping that would result would reduce the dynamic range of the file. But that is not the intended purpose or normal operation of replaygain.

(Your post referred to "Sound check or other routine." I used replaygain as an example because I am not familiar with sound check.)

 

[gdg]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Febs Because with modern encoders, MP3 can achieve transparency with most listeners. I'm curious (and this is a genuine curiosity so please don't take this as a flame) how you can judge the quality of MP3 if you have never used it?

I base this decision purely on the fact that an enormous amount of musical information is discarded in this format. Whether this is clearly audible, barely perceptable or so minimal that it only has a subliminal effect on music perception is not an issue. As far as I'm concernd the RB standard as it stands is barely adequate and I refuse to tolerate even the slightest degradation of what is a substandard format to begin with. Furthermore I've been an audiophile for about 12 years and have an extensive knowledge of the tastes, foibles and biases of many in the mainstream press. By comparing what I read with what I hear I've learned to read beween of the lines of reviews and have a pretty good sense of what I can believe and what I need to check out for myself. Virtually every high end reviewer I respect (and all the others as well) have written off MP3 as a viable high end format so I can't be bothered verifying their results. That, in addition to the simple fact that the format is technically inferior, makes it a no brainer for me. I have too much good equipment, meant to squeeze out every last bit of performance to take a step backwards.

 

[hoosterw]

Quote:

Originally Posted by gdg Mine's a 5th gen but I should clarify that was not the problem with ALAC. It only occurs when I use full sized WAV files.

Well maybe for what it is worth, I have a 4th gen colour and 5th gen video iPod and play WAV on both of them. never had any problem or pausing.
They both play flawless.

What I do have noticed with iTunes ripping CD's is that sometimes the (coverted or not) ripped songs get interrupted/distorted when the CPU was ordered to do other things then just to listen to iTunes. iTunes is very CPU and memory usage hungry. So now when ripping CD's I leave the PC doing just that and have no problems anymore. Might that be the problem?

Just an idea.

Rgds Hans.

 

[gdg]

Quote:

Originally Posted by hoosterw Well maybe for what it is worth, I have a 4th gen colour and 5th gen video iPod and play WAV on both of them. never had any problem or pausing. They both play flawless. What I do have noticed with iTunes ripping CD's is that sometimes the (coverted or not) ripped songs get interrupted/distorted when the CPU was ordered to do other things then just to listen to iTunes. iTunes is very CPU and memory usage hungry. So now when ripping CD's I leave the PC doing just that and have no problems anymore. Might that be the problem? Just an idea. Rgds Hans.

Maybe you just havn't noticed. Other people have verified this glitch with full sized WAV. The problem has been identified as an inability to buffer such a large file in the short time between songs. It can't be a ripping issue because I rip with EAC and then just transfer to Itunes. Itunes doesn't really do anything.

 

[JWolf]

The solution to part of your problem is Rockbox. Rockbox will let you use FLAC compressed files (lossless) and give you more space on your iPod's hard drive and it's gapless. It won't solve the problem of differing volume. But it will solve the problem of WAV playback beng crap on the iPod. Part of that is the iPod isn't gapless by default. Rockbox is the only way to make an iPod gapless and allow the use of FLAC files. Also you can use Ogg Vorbis for times when lossy is OK. Level 9 or Level 10 is way better then MP3/AAC at 320k CBR. You won't go wrong with Rockbox. But you will not enjoy the iPod the way you want without. Unless of course you purchase a Rio Karma.

 

[Chef Medeski]

I get the pause sometimes with AAC320 files.

Its basically just because the files are so large on your hard drive... but u get that... the buffer space.

You know if you are going to use a Hornet and have all your files in WAV, then you have left out one big aspect of your rig. Your source. Sure, the Cyro dock helps a bit, but anyone who can tell a difference between WAV and ALAC must really understand quality, and to keep you iPod so limited with a Cyro dock seems funny to me. Its almost like having your music in MP3. You are taking a step back. You should really get a Redwine iMod. It replaces all the crappy innards, with audiophile grade equipment and delivers a line-out through the headphone jack, so you don't need a dock. It would greatly increase your audio quality. If you can afford it, I mean.

Plus it only works with 4G. But still it seems like your the kind of man who puts audio quality above these sort of things. So you should check it out.

 

[gdg]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chef Medeski Plus it only works with 4G. .

I have been thinking about this exact aspect or the Ipod. It really dawned on me when I compared the Hornet (via the Crydock) to the variable output directly into my e500s. There was very little difference which tells me that the line out of the Ipod can 't be very good. But you nailed the issue...my Ipod is a 5g. I may consider getting a RW 4g but I got spooked when Fierce Freak reported his was caput because a connection inside shorted (after the RW mod).

 

[Chef Medeski]

Quote:

Originally Posted by gdg I have been thinking about this exact aspect or the Ipod. It really dawned on me when I compared the Hornet (via the Crydock) to the variable output directly into my e500s. There was very little difference which tells me that the line out of the Ipod can 't be very good. But you nailed the issue...my Ipod is a 5g. I may consider getting a RW 4g but I got spooked when Fierce Freak reported his was caput because a connection inside shorted (after the RW mod).

Well, I would think RW would replace it since that means it was something to do with their soldering work... most likely... so it would seem they should take responsibility.

 

[gdg]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chef Medeski Well, I would think RW would replace it since that means it was something to do with their soldering work... most likely... so it would seem they should take responsibility.

Chef,
I'm sure RW would stand behind their product 100%. It would just be a pain to deal with but in reality any custom work or hand made gear will be suceptable to that kind of thing. Actually you've got me thinking. Since I have a 5g and was thinking of getting a 60gig I could just look for a used 4g 60gig, get it modded and have music while I wait using my current model.
Gerry

 

[mirumu]

I've ran into the song skipping issue on my 4G iPod with ALAC files but it's rare enough that it doesn't bother me too much, I just play the track again. I did try Rockbox but it didn't seem to be able to sustain the decoding speed necessary to play ALAC files in realtime, they'd skip every so often. That's with no EQ and avoiding screen animations. I could probably get around it by re-encoding to FLAC but that's a lot of effort and I didn't really like the way Rockbox operated either, especially the low battery life. SQ was good when it wasn't skipping though.

As to the format debate, I have never had trouble picking the difference between MP3 and the lossless formats. To me it's like night and day. I agree with gdg, the Red Book standard itself is lacking. That said, there's no use wasting space on something you can't hear, I'd suggest people just try the various formats they can use for themselves and if they can't pick the difference then they might as well go with the smaller files. As long as it doesn't affect your enjoyment of the music it's fine. Personally MP3s make me enjoy my music less so I avoid it and use lossless. I wish there was such a simple cure to poorly mastered CDs.