[doublea71]

I'm sure some of what they sell is worth it, but anything being marketed and priced as high-res music should either be fully vetted by them or at least include full disclosure if they are unsure of anything due to not being informed by the record labels. Hell, if they really cared about their customers and the integrity of their product, they wouldn't sell anything that came with question marks at all. You can't just shrug and say, "gee, uh, don't blame us, we're, uh, just the delivery service, we only know what they tell us" while cashing in on the premium/marketing of hd music and not expect a few conniptions. It's disingenuous at best.

 

[HDtracks]

  It`s not good enough and it`s more than a little bizarre.  I`m also an HDTracks customer, or was, and I find their attitude completely unacceptable.  This is an enthusiasts` market: we know what we want, and it`s often quite specific.  I`m into the details.  That one of the main sources of this content, that charges for their services, can be so blasé about their own lack of knowledge is really lame.
 
I`ve been toying with the idea of undertaking the PS3 hack and it`s suddenly become much more appealing. . .    

We apologize if you find our attitude or responses unacceptable our intention is not to offend.  The fact of the matter is, many times it is extremely difficult or impossible to discuss with all of the labels for all of our releases, have them track down the mastering or mix engineer or get the source information for them.  That would take an army and we are not releasing one album a day.  On every single release we do our due diligence and make sure it is the resolution the label is saying it is.  Aside from that, it is very difficult to get information from them. 
 
We completely understand you are into the details, the details are great.  But because we cannot get information from them, (and believe we have tried) should HDtracks not exist or should we not release these albums?  We think it is pretty fair to say we are one of the pioneers of the hi-res digital download age and it is not easy, AT ALL to be the first.   So maybe instead of complaining about what we can't offer compliment what we can offer and help bring the audiophile culture up, not down.  The more people complain the more you make other people who have never had the pleasure of experiencing hi-resolution downloads afraid to try it.  You make it seem like our intent is to deceive, withhold information and like it is not a great experience to hear one of your favorite albums in incredible high-resolution.   You are hurting the movement that way.  So if we would like to see this culture grow, which is the only way you will get your favorite artists to record and offer all of their albums, less compressed, better mixed and mastered and in hi-res formats we should start helping it grow not degrade it.  Because if it doesn't grow, artists and engineers will just continue to over compress, poorly mix, and not give us information on any of it, because who cares why would they if its not helping them out or have any effect on their album sales.
 
The main point is we are just starting with this, so we are sorry if everything is not perfect.  But please believe we are striving everyday to bring this to the forefront and let people know that there is a better alternative to poorly recorded, crappy sounding mp3's and they should expect the best.  Hopefully so that eventually our voices and demands are so loud that they will not have a choice but to record and offer the very best product they can.
 
And once again, please understand we are not trying to offend or disregard our users wants, our customers are extremely important to us and making them happy is extremely important.  One of the reasons we are on here is to try and have an open dialog and be as transparent as possible, while still trying to offer a great product, keep the labels and customers happy and push the hi-res digital download world further.

 

[HDtracks]

  Hi.
 
I appreciate you participating on the forum here, and can't express how great it is to have a high-resolution alternative to the iTunes lossy juggernaut.
 
I did want to ask what you mean specifically by the above statement.  Are you stating that you have verified that the data itself is 24/96 (or whatever is stated)?  Or do you mean you have verified that the waveforms were indeed sourced at 24/96 or higher?  (I am not sure if this is even possible, but curious.)
 
-Pie

Hello Eating Pie,
 
We use Spectrograms, spectrographs, bitscopes and other professional audio equipment to validate the resolution and bit depth. 

 

[whereas]

  We apologize if you find our attitude or responses unacceptable our intention is not to offend.  The fact of the matter is, many times it is extremely difficult or impossible to discuss with all of the labels for all of our releases, have them track down the mastering or mix engineer or get the source information for them.  That would take an army and we are not releasing one album a day.  On every single release we do our due diligence and make sure it is the resolution the label is saying it is.  Aside from that, it is very difficult to get information from them. 
 
We completely understand you are into the details, the details are great.  But because we cannot get information from them, (and believe we have tried) should HDtracks not exist or should we not release these albums?  We think it is pretty fair to say we are one of the pioneers of the hi-res digital download age and it is not easy, AT ALL to be the first.   So maybe instead of complaining about what we can't offer compliment what we can offer and help bring the audiophile culture up, not down.  The more people complain the more you make other people who have never had the pleasure of experiencing hi-resolution downloads afraid to try it.  You make it seem like our intent is to deceive, withhold information and like it is not a great experience to hear one of your favorite albums in incredible high-resolution.   You are hurting the movement that way.  So if we would like to see this culture grow, which is the only way you will get your favorite artists to record and offer all of their albums, less compressed, better mixed and mastered and in hi-res formats we should start helping it grow not degrade it.  Because if it doesn't grow, artists and engineers will just continue to over compress, poorly mix, and not give us information on any of it, because who cares why would they if its not helping them out or have any effect on their album sales.
 
The main point is we are just starting with this, so we are sorry if everything is not perfect.  But please believe we are striving everyday to bring this to the forefront and let people know that there is a better alternative to poorly recorded, crappy sounding mp3's and they should expect the best.  Hopefully so that eventually our voices and demands are so loud that they will not have a choice but to record and offer the very best product they can.
 
And once again, please understand we are not trying to offend or disregard our users wants, our customers are extremely important to us and making them happy is extremely important.  One of the reasons we are on here is to try and have an open dialog and be as transparent as possible, while still trying to offer a great product, keep the labels and customers happy and push the hi-res digital download world further.

What makes it so difficult to get the info from the record label? Do they just send you an automated email with a download link or something like that? Some type of proprietary distribution software?
 
Just based on my ignorance, I would assume that if a live person puts you in contact with the actual files you'll be selling in your online store, you would at least have a point of contact to start with in finding out details about mastering, etc. If it's all automated, and you only had an initial contact with a sales / distribution department, then what you're saying would make sense.

 

[doublea71]

HDTracks said: "So maybe instead of complaining about what we can't offer compliment what we can offer and help bring the audiophile culture up, not down.  The more people complain the more you make other people who have never had the pleasure of experiencing hi-resolution downloads afraid to try it.  You make it seem like our intent is to deceive, withhold information and like it is not a great experience to hear one of your favorite albums in incredible high-resolution.   You are hurting the movement that way."
 
You're right - it's all our fault. A complete lack of criticism/feedback always leads to better products and spurns innovation.

 

[elmoe]

  We apologize if you find our attitude or responses unacceptable our intention is not to offend.  The fact of the matter is, many times it is extremely difficult or impossible to discuss with all of the labels for all of our releases, have them track down the mastering or mix engineer or get the source information for them.  That would take an army and we are not releasing one album a day.  On every single release we do our due diligence and make sure it is the resolution the label is saying it is.  Aside from that, it is very difficult to get information from them. 
 
We completely understand you are into the details, the details are great.  But because we cannot get information from them, (and believe we have tried) should HDtracks not exist or should we not release these albums?  We think it is pretty fair to say we are one of the pioneers of the hi-res digital download age and it is not easy, AT ALL to be the first.   So maybe instead of complaining about what we can't offer compliment what we can offer and help bring the audiophile culture up, not down.  The more people complain the more you make other people who have never had the pleasure of experiencing hi-resolution downloads afraid to try it.  You make it seem like our intent is to deceive, withhold information and like it is not a great experience to hear one of your favorite albums in incredible high-resolution.   You are hurting the movement that way.  So if we would like to see this culture grow, which is the only way you will get your favorite artists to record and offer all of their albums, less compressed, better mixed and mastered and in hi-res formats we should start helping it grow not degrade it.  Because if it doesn't grow, artists and engineers will just continue to over compress, poorly mix, and not give us information on any of it, because who cares why would they if its not helping them out or have any effect on their album sales.
 
The main point is we are just starting with this, so we are sorry if everything is not perfect.  But please believe we are striving everyday to bring this to the forefront and let people know that there is a better alternative to poorly recorded, crappy sounding mp3's and they should expect the best.  Hopefully so that eventually our voices and demands are so loud that they will not have a choice but to record and offer the very best product they can.
 
And once again, please understand we are not trying to offend or disregard our users wants, our customers are extremely important to us and making them happy is extremely important.  One of the reasons we are on here is to try and have an open dialog and be as transparent as possible, while still trying to offer a great product, keep the labels and customers happy and push the hi-res digital download world further.

 
So basically we should give you our money for a product that is not what you tell us it is just because it "advances the audiophile movement"?
 
Grand notions aside, you're making money selling something that isn't what you say it is. Who's hurting the movement here?
 
You've just lost a customer.

 

[HDtracks]

   
So basically we should give you our money for a product that is not what you tell us it is just because it "advances the audiophile movement"?
 
Grand notions aside, you're making money selling something that isn't what you say it is. Who's hurting the movement here?
 
You've just lost a customer.

Elmoe what are we saying it is that it isn't? As previously mentioned we check all material to make sure it is the resolution the label says it is other than that what are you referring to?
 
Like we previously said we are on here to have open dialog, we are not here to offend or turn you off of the service so we apologize if we did. 

 

[elmoe]

http://www.audiostream.com/content/becks-imorning-phasei-2496-download-worth-it
 
HD quality audio sourced from mp3s seems like it isn't so "HD" to me... You can't just say well thats not our problem it's what the record label gives us. This is something people pay you for expecting to get legitimate high quality products, if you aren't willing to check at least as much as the person who wrote the above article, what does that say about your business? Audacity is free software, it's not like it's impossible for you to check the products you put out before selling them.

 

[HDtracks]

  http://www.audiostream.com/content/becks-imorning-phasei-2496-download-worth-it
 
HD quality audio sourced from mp3s seems like it isn't so "HD" to me... 

We noted all of those tracks on the about of the album page from the very beginning and no one can say they were sourced from the mp3's not even the engineers who we spoke with.  The album was made and put together over 8 years. And what they did say is there is no way they would have accepted an mp3 when the files were delivered to master.  And they were mastered by Bob Ludwig.

 

[lithium1085]

 
We noted all of those tracks on the about of the album page from the very beginning and no one can say they were sourced from the mp3's not even the engineers who we spoke with.  The album was made and put together over 8 years. And what they did say is there is no way they would have accepted an mp3 when the files were delivered to master.  And they were mastered by Bob Ludwig.

 
I sympathize with the difficulties that you face being a novel service. However, I think HDtracks should make bigger efforts since your customers pay premium prices and are an extremely discerning audience. I am sure music labels are opaque and not very open to anything close to full disclosure. HDtracks should try to be transparent about their efforts to extract more information from labels and seek help from customers in increasing the pressure on labels.
I think if labels realize that HD music can be a larger revenue generator than conventional sales in the future ( due to the profusion of streaming services), things can change very quickly. Just as an idea, perhaps talking to executives in the electronics division of Sony (who seem very interested in HD playback equipment) can help to exert more pressure on the Music side of Sony. Even if such attempts fail, at least full disclosure on the part of HDtracks will earn immeasurable goodwill and customer loyalty. I know you have a business to run and perhaps even non-disclosure agreements, but HD music consumers pay huge amounts in a marketplace where others stream anything they want for $10/month. We definitely feel cheated when something like this happens and perhaps assign blame at your door somewhat unfairly. But as the innovator you have to accept some of the responsibility and at least make attempts for more transparency from the music industry. All we ask for is a genuine effort from your side (perhaps something that is already happening) and I am sure you will agree that this is not an unreasonable request.

 

[HDtracks]

   
I sympathize with the difficulties that you face being a novel service. However, I think HDtracks should make bigger efforts since your customers pay premium prices and are an extremely discerning audience. I am sure music labels are opaque and not very open to anything close to full disclosure. HDtracks should try to be transparent about their efforts to extract more information from labels and seek help from customers in increasing the pressure on labels.
I think if labels realize that HD music can be a larger revenue generator than conventional sales in the future ( due to the profusion of streaming services), things can change very quickly. Just as an idea, perhaps talking to executives in the electronics division of Sony (who seem very interested in HD playback equipment) can help to exert more pressure on the Music side of Sony. Even if such attempts fail, at least full disclosure on the part of HDtracks will earn immeasurable goodwill and customer loyalty. I know you have a business to run and perhaps even non-disclosure agreements, but HD music consumers pay huge amounts in a marketplace where others stream anything they want for $10/month. We definitely feel cheated when something like this happens and perhaps assign blame at your door somewhat unfairly. But as the innovator you have to accept some of the responsibility and at least make attempts for more transparency from the music industry. All we ask for is a genuine effort from your side (perhaps something that is already happening) and I am sure you will agree that this is not an unreasonable request.

Hello Lithium1805,
 
Thank you for your reply, think is very well said and agree.  It is not a bad idea at all and we are working on putting more pressure on labels, artists and engineers alike. Thanks again Lithium!

 

[Eating Pie]

 
Hello Eating Pie,
 
We use Spectrograms, spectrographs, bitscopes and other professional audio equipment to validate the resolution and bit depth. 

Thanks for the answer.  I must say I have learned a few new things reading from this thread!  As a HDTracks customer, I would echo lithium1085's sentiments.
 

 
We noted all of those tracks on the about of the album page from the very beginning and no one can say they were sourced from the mp3's not even the engineers who we spoke with.  The album was made and put together over 8 years. And what they did say is there is no way they would have accepted an mp3 when the files were delivered to master.  And they were mastered by Bob Ludwig.
 

I can completely understand your difficulty with Beck's album, given the time-lag and studio diversity involved with the recordings.  I also very much appreciate you disclosing the sample rate limitations, which is to your credit!  I would like to request that you actually disclose these findings on the Main Page of the album description, rather than in a separate tab like "About this Album."  I also think always disclosing your findings -- whether it be full-blown 24/192,96,etc. or up-sampled 16/44.1 -- would be a great service to your customers.  Something like a tag saying VERIFIED 24/96 could actually help sales.
 
-Pie

 

[whereas]

Originally Posted by Eating Pie /img/forum/go_quote.gif
  Thanks for the answer.  I must say I have learned a few new things reading from this thread!  As a HDTracks customer, I would echo lithium1085's sentiments.
 
I can completely understand your difficulty with Beck's album, given the time-lag and studio diversity involved with the recordings.  I also very much appreciate you disclosing the sample rate limitations, which is to your credit!  I would like to request that you actually disclose these findings on the Main Page of the album description, rather than in a separate tab like "About this Album."  I also think always disclosing your findings -- whether it be full-blown 24/192,96,etc. or up-sampled 16/44.1 -- would be a great service to your customers.  Something like a tag saying VERIFIED 24/96 could actually help sales.
 
-Pie

 
Wait, is this something that actually happens? Because that's literally synonymous with a gas station taking 87 octane unleaded, putting it in the 93 octane side of the pump and selling it as 93 octane.

 

[Dopaminer]

HD Tracks, your replies just get weirder and weirder.  
How can you use the term `due diligence` when you answer our concerns about your content with words like `seem`, and whine about how hard it is to get solid information from your suppliers?   
How can you transfer blame to us, the customers, for impeding the growth of the high-resolution music market by `complaining` about the veracity your for-profit product, when it is your lack of thoroughness that contributes to skepticism - the skepticism that high res music is worth it?  
And, I`m sorry, but we are not all in this together, we do not all need to pull together to lift the high-res music market and your particular company.  We are customers and you are a vendor - don`t get all team-spirit on us...  And quit with the `this is a new frontier` line:  you`ve been in business for 6 years.  6 years and you still can`t provide your paying customers with the fundamental details of what we are buying?  Try transferring this attitude to any other line of business. . . 

 

[harrinj]

I'd be weary of these HDTracks. It's a lot of money to spend to have no details. Don't much care for the way they respond to it either.