[Makiah S]

  I have the same issue, I can hear a hum when others cant. But interestingly you mentioned the Starlight. I had a Sunrise 2 but could hear a hum, so wondering if the Starlight has less hum?
But the Vali might not be for me, after reading through this thread. But just in case somebody has the Vali 2 AND some of the Garage 1217 amps, how do they rank in regards to noise?

I have both with me, an I'm working furiosuly on a comparison of the two. 
 
For starters, give then Price the Starlight an Vali are equally good amps. How ever the Vali 2 does better with High Impedance Low Efficiany Headphones, where as the Starlight does best with Low Impedance and/or high sensitivity headphones 
 
frankly, with the same tube an the same headphone [my LA D5k and a 6n23p] I found the Vali 2 to be far noisy than the Starlight 
 
ofc if your looking to drive a pair of old school planar magnetics [Hifiman HE 4/400/5/500 or Audeze LCD 2/3 or Mr Speakers XXX Dog or ZMF XXX] than the Vali 2 has more power an handles those headphones better, giving them a better defined sound stage and fuller sound overall 
 
with low impedance dynamics like AKG, Beyer [>250 models] Sennhesier [>300 models] Denons, Audio Technicas, Grados or any of Hifimans new planars like the HE X than the Starlight is by FAR quieter, with a very black background and a more 3D sound stage
 
the Starlight is quiet an weak with "old school planars" an the Vali 2 is noisy and unfocused with "low impedance dynamics" to my ears 

 

[jlangholzj]

I've not (yet) had a chance to listen to a Vali2 (due to lack of funds on my part) but there's some food for thought here.
 
Since a bunch of you have a seeming hard-on for the starlight I decided to look it up.
 
1) Its ugly. Even their aluminum "chassis" is just a couple plates on stand-offs. *shrug* I mean hey even ugly girls need loving too so if it still gets the job done then I'll not hold it against it. Just was my first impression is all...
 
2) COMPLETELY different tube. Several of us have already pointed out that even within tubes you've got a *huge* range of variation. They *are* tubes after all. The ECC82/12AU7 has a significantly lower gain than the ECC88/6922 does. That in itself can cause more/less microphonics or more/less noise.
 
Well okay, so you can run different tubes in both. What if I put the same tube in both? Same tube in different circuits are not created equal. Heck just recently I was flip-flopping phono tubes around in my system between channels because one chan was a slight bit brighter than the other. I was afraid after re-capping and re-resistoring the input stage that something was wrong....especially because the symptom didn't follow the tube. Nope, just random interaction between the same circuits (scold me if you want for not getting a matching pair....that's going to change here soon). Also with swapping tubes while it *shouldn't* matter too much keep in mind that if its burned in at one Q-point on one amp......that may not translate over to a great q-point on the other one.
 
Moving beyond comparing to another amp or tube or proper cabling, are all of you that are experiencing noise sure its not in your source? Several of you have noted that it shows up in classical music during the quiet parts. I mean...that's getting pretty damn picky AND its a medium that's extremely hard to get right. Even the last round of the Led Zep remasters which were taken from reel-to-reel sources have noise in them when you listen to it that just was from the original recording techniques. Are you sure that one amplifier isn't just more revealing and is picking up more noise in the source?
 
Is everyone letting their tubes warm up for a good 5-10 mins before using them? How many listening hours do you have on it (the tube)? That was already an issue of concern in the thread that's been addressed but very few that said "out of the box it sounds like blah blah blah" came back and gave any more input after letting the tubes burn in. Same goes for anyone that's said "the stock tube is absolute trash". C'mon guys, they're all in the same family. Each one can have little differences here and there but I'm going to be VERY IMPRESSED if you can magically make a previously trashy sounding amp a golden child by switching to a tube in the same family.....
 
Lastly yeah i know it sounds like I'm stroking schiit's ego here and I'm not. It's very possible that there might be some noise but there's just so many variables pointing to many different sources of issues to definitively say...yes...this schiit is...well....schiity....and not in a good way. So far I've not seen a repeatable occurrence of "here's the problem". Additionally.....there is the whole perceived notion. I'm perfectly happy thrashing around my 911 but recently had someone comment that the ride was too rough....I mean...really? It's not a damn towncar...what did you expect?!

 

[Makiah S]

  I've not (yet) had a chance to listen to a Vali2 (due to lack of funds on my part) but there's some food for thought here.
 
Since a bunch of you have a seeming hard-on for the starlight I decided to look it up.
 
1) Its ugly. Even their aluminum "chassis" is just a couple plates on stand-offs. *shrug* I mean hey even ugly girls need loving too so if it still gets the job done then I'll not hold it against it. Just was my first impression is all...
 
2) COMPLETELY different tube. Several of us have already pointed out that even within tubes you've got a *huge* range of variation. They *are* tubes after all. The ECC82/12AU7 has a significantly lower gain than the ECC88/6922 does. That in itself can cause more/less microphonics or more/less noise.
 
Well okay, so you can run different tubes in both. What if I put the same tube in both? Same tube in different circuits are not created equal. Heck just recently I was flip-flopping phono tubes around in my system between channels because one chan was a slight bit brighter than the other. I was afraid after re-capping and re-resistoring the input stage that something was wrong....especially because the symptom didn't follow the tube. Nope, just random interaction between the same circuits (scold me if you want for not getting a matching pair....that's going to change here soon). Also with swapping tubes while it *shouldn't* matter too much keep in mind that if its burned in at one Q-point on one amp......that may not translate over to a great q-point on the other one.
 
Moving beyond comparing to another amp or tube or proper cabling, are all of you that are experiencing noise sure its not in your source? Several of you have noted that it shows up in classical music during the quiet parts. I mean...that's getting pretty damn picky AND its a medium that's extremely hard to get right. Even the last round of the Led Zep remasters which were taken from reel-to-reel sources have noise in them when you listen to it that just was from the original recording techniques. Are you sure that one amplifier isn't just more revealing and is picking up more noise in the source?
 
Is everyone letting their tubes warm up for a good 5-10 mins before using them? How many listening hours do you have on it (the tube)? That was already an issue of concern in the thread that's been addressed but very few that said "out of the box it sounds like blah blah blah" came back and gave any more input after letting the tubes burn in. Same goes for anyone that's said "the stock tube is absolute trash". C'mon guys, they're all in the same family. Each one can have little differences here and there but I'm going to be VERY IMPRESSED if you can magically make a previously trashy sounding amp a golden child by switching to a tube in the same family.....
 
Lastly yeah i know it sounds like I'm stroking schiit's ego here and I'm not. It's very possible that there might be some noise but there's just so many variables pointing to many different sources of issues to definitively say...yes...this schiit is...well....schiity....and not in a good way. So far I've not seen a repeatable occurrence of "here's the problem". Additionally.....there is the whole perceived notion. I'm perfectly happy thrashing around my 911 but recently had someone comment that the ride was too rough....I mean...really? It's not a damn towncar...what did you expect?!

 
The two amps are not created equal, the Starlight is a serious PITA amp to own. You manually adjust the bias every time you roll it, an you need to fine tune the Output Resistance to get an ideal sound from it 
 
So with the Exact same tube in each amp, both warmed up for about 15mins an both sourced from the Same NFB10ES2 Fixed line out, running Kernal Streaming out of Windows 7 an Foo Bar [no eq] I'm finding it to be noisy, with classical for starters but also with Jazz. Anything with a quiet mix has more audible noise in it on the Vali 2 vs the Starlight 
 
Now, you plug a Higher ohm headphone into the Vali 2 an there is little to no noise at all, an if you get above 600 ohms on the starlight... you may run out of headroom. But apples for Apples, same headphone, same source, same song, same tube, same amount of time burned in  there is a differance 
 
now how does one get the improved or blacker background on the Starlight? You have to open it up an fiddle around with it's output jumper settings. You also need to make sure your tube is biased about every 2-3 days. If you do that the extra $20 you spend get's you imo a better sounding amp
 
but guess what... does EVERY one want to spend more money and more time for better sound? Not always, an hence is the differance between the two amps. The Starlight requires you spend time with it, tuning it, experimenting with it to get the best sound. An if your willing to tolerate it's "ugly" chasis and play with it. You'll get a better quality of sound, though that's ONLY with Low Impedance Dynamic Headphones
 
Where as the Vali 2... is SO MUCH simpler to own! LITERALLY PLUG in and enjoy. The most you might need to do is flip the gain switch, other wise your set! Did I think schiit make a "schiity" sounding amp? No, given the price an the amazing flexability an ease of ownership it sounds fantastic! Do I think you can get a better amp in the same price Category, yes, does that amp have the same level of flexability and simplicity... not really. So there's the differance, 
 
Schiit has done an excellent job creating an eco system for them selvs! Kinda like Apple Products, if some one posts in the intro Boards that they've NEVER owned a headphone amp or dac before, an they are curious about tube amps... 9/10 I'm going to point to the Schiit Vali 2 Modi Stack. because for that consumer, she/he is going to have a great product that is simple to enjoy
 
In terms of Sound an Build, despite it's open chasis I found the Starlight to be better, but that improvement in quality comes at the expense of simplicity and overall ease of owner ship.
 
 
 
I an others have derailed this thread long enough, I've made a new thread to countinue this discussion 
http://www.head-fi.org/t/793686/the-new-generation-of-entry-level-hybrid-tubes

 

[lvince95]

Originally Posted by jlangholzj /img/forum/go_quote.gif
 
1) Its ugly. Even their aluminum "chassis" is just a couple plates on stand-offs. *shrug* I mean hey even ugly girls need loving too so if it still gets the job done then I'll not hold it against it. Just was my first impression is all...
 
Lastly yeah i know it sounds like I'm stroking schiit's ego here and I'm not.

I think you are. Whether it's ugly or not, we're talking about performance here. He has both and has compared them, whereas you're just purely speculating.
 
You should properly read up on the Asgard incident and maybe then your Schiit bias will be gone, but seeing as how biased you are it'll probably not go away. It can't be helped I guess.

 

[Makiah S]

  I think you are. Whether it's ugly or not, we're talking about performance here. He has both and has compared them, whereas you're just purely speculating.
 
You should properly read up on the Asgard incident and maybe then your Schiit bias will be gone, but seeing as how biased you are it'll probably not go away. It can't be helped I guess.

mmhm, and again I've got a new thread for us to continue this discussion on 
 It might be best for us to move so we have a more concise place to discuss this, as well as reference people back to. 

 

[jfoxvol]

@jlangholzj it sounded like a solid cogent argument to me.  Experience with one specific situation does not mean someone cannot have knowledge about a topic.  I believe the impetus behind the statement was similar to a few of my previous.  Basically, if you don't like it, send it back.  I like mine.  There's nothing wrong with having an opinion, but derailing a thread I've already become tiresome of is just a waste.  

 

[jlangholzj]

  I think you are. Whether it's ugly or not, we're talking about performance here. He has both and has compared them, whereas you're just purely speculating.
 
You should properly read up on the Asgard incident and maybe then your Schiit bias will be gone, but seeing as how biased you are it'll probably not go away. It can't be helped I guess.

 
I'm familiar with the "asgard incident". Also I've no particular bias one way or another, my Fulla has a noisy pot on it for whatever reason but I don't adjust my volume at all so I just deal with it. My point was that up until post #772 not a one had said for conditions X,Y, and Z being equal these are the things that I'm observing. And while the two of us (me and Mshenay) might have differing opinions at times he's the ONLY one who when called to the carpet, put up and I'll honor that.
 
We've had folks not warming their tubes up and folks doing silly things, which isn't bad in itself because holy hell we all make mistakes! My point (that may or may not have been glossed over) is  that I have issues with high-variable, low-data cutsets that present non-repeatable information. AKA, I was simply pointing out that there's LOTS of other things that could be the issue and maybe for some of these guys that have been having issues could do something different to remedy the situation. I'm not in the business of promoting schiit, I'll leave that to Jason. I'm sticking around because I'm going to plan on getting one here in the next year and am around for who's getting what for tubes so I buy only one or two (cause *******it I spent enough on a matched quad of 7355's for my other stuff).

 

[HOWIE13]

  I have the same issue, I can hear a hum when others cant. But interestingly you mentioned the Starlight. I had a Sunrise 2 but could hear a hum, so wondering if the Starlight has less hum?
But the Vali might not be for me, after reading through this thread. But just in case somebody has the Vali 2 AND some of the Garage 1217 amps, how do they rank in regards to noise?

Starlight, Horizon3, Ember and Polaris are in my system humless. However, you can still get other types of noises from tubes in any tube amp and Garage amps are no exception to this. That's the nature of tube amps.
To be fair the hum I hear on Vali2 is usually not bothersome unless the music is very quiet so I still enjoy using Vali2. It's a good amp.
It is also totally silent on low gain, which suffices for a lot of cans I use anyway.

 

[Makiah S]

 
 
We've had folks not warming their tubes up and folks doing silly things, which isn't bad in itself because holy hell we all make mistakes! My point (that may or may not have been glossed over) is  that I have issues with high-variable, low-data cutsets that present non-repeatable information. AKA, I was simply pointing out that there's LOTS of other things that could be the issue and maybe for some of these guys that have been having issues could do something different to remedy the situation. I'm not in the business of promoting schiit, I'll leave that to Jason. I'm sticking around because I'm going to plan on getting one here in the next year and am around for who's getting what for tubes so I buy only one or two (cause *******it I spent enough on a matched quad of 7355's for my other stuff).

I'm actually getting an octal 9pin Socket Saver and a new Tube tommorow, I might try that one and see how it sounds with the Vali 2 before I ship it back monday
 
I've getting 2 GE 6SN7 GTAs, in the Starlight I really enjoyed the sound stage of the GE 6SN7 GTB, my only issue with it was the edgy highs and the bloom in the bass, I've heard many times over the GTA variants have a tighter bass an smoother highs, without any loss in the sound stage 

 

[roamling]

  I have both with me, an I'm working furiosuly on a comparison of the two. 
 
For starters, give then Price the Starlight an Vali are equally good amps. How ever the Vali 2 does better with High Impedance Low Efficiany Headphones, where as the Starlight does best with Low Impedance and/or high sensitivity headphones 
 
frankly, with the same tube an the same headphone [my LA D5k and a 6n23p] I found the Vali 2 to be far noisy than the Starlight 
 
ofc if your looking to drive a pair of old school planar magnetics [Hifiman HE 4/400/5/500 or Audeze LCD 2/3 or Mr Speakers XXX Dog or ZMF XXX] than the Vali 2 has more power an handles those headphones better, giving them a better defined sound stage and fuller sound overall 
 
with low impedance dynamics like AKG, Beyer [>250 models] Sennhesier [>300 models] Denons, Audio Technicas, Grados or any of Hifimans new planars like the HE X than the Starlight is by FAR quieter, with a very black background and a more 3D sound stage
 
the Starlight is quiet an weak with "old school planars" an the Vali 2 is noisy and unfocused with "low impedance dynamics" to my ears 

 
wow, great feedback. Thanks!

 

[jfoxvol]

  I'm actually getting an octal 9pin Socket Saver and a new Tube tommorow, I might try that one and see how it sounds with the Vali 2 before I ship it back monday
 
I've getting 2 GE 6SN7 GTAs, in the Starlight I really enjoyed the sound stage of the GE 6SN7 GTB, my only issue with it was the edgy highs and the bloom in the bass, I've heard many times over the GTA variants have a tighter bass an smoother highs, without any loss in the sound stage 

I'll have mine at the show in March.  I've got a nice NOS Jan Philips 6922 that sounds great.  I spec'd extra low noise and microphonics.  It works quite well.  It's no Ragnarok, but it's fun.  And it's cheap.

 

[roamling]

  Starlight, Horizon3, Ember and Polaris are in my system humless. However, you can still get other types of noises from tubes in any tube amp and Garage amps are no exception to this. That's the nature of tube amps.
To be fair the hum I hear on Vali2 is usually not bothersome unless the music is very quiet so I still enjoy using Vali2. It's a good amp.
It is also totally silent on low gain, which suffices for a lot of cans I use anyway.

 
I owned a Sunrise 2 for a year and it was fine with my Sennheiser HD650. Then some months ago I changed headphones to a Beyerdynamic T90 and I could hear hum all of a sudden, to such a level that the amp became an issue. So yes, I guess it seems there is some inherent issue with the tube design and hum but then this can be multiplied depending on what gear you are using. I listen to a lot of classical music and then i pick on hum in quiet passages. I eventually sold my Sunrise and the new owner has no issues at all.
 
I think i might not be the perfect candidate for tube amps, the Vali2 seemed ticked a lot of boxes for me, the design and power... but i guess i stick with solid state at the moment 

 

 

[painted klown]

 
I spent some time this weekend with Vali 2, HD650, Bifrost MB.  It sounds very good.  I'm using a 6CG7 tube versus the stock tube.  I did a whole lot of tube and headphone swapping so I don't have very detailed notes.  However, I can say that the HD650 had plenty of detail.  It's never been accused of being bright but it scales really well and this amp/dac combination work well together with the HD650s.  I also used an Ether C and Denon AHD7000.  The latter not as much.  That's mostly the headphone's fault.  

Thank you for the follow up and additional info. Nice to see the Bimby + Vali 2+ HD-650 make a great team. Been drooling over the Schiit multibits for a while now.
 
Re: The Vali 2 and hum/noise.
 
My Vali 2 does have a hum when you use low z 'phones and have the gain on high. For example my Grado SR80i will have a hum when on high gain mode. IMO, this hum sounds like an electrical hum of sorts. It does not change volume with the amp and disappears completely in low gain mode. Additionally, with my HD-650, I cannot hear the hum with either gain mode.
 
The hum is hardly noticeable to me, and I actually didn't notice it at all until another forum member pointed it out and I went back to listen for it. Sure enough, it's there, but it's far from a deal breaker, and if it really annoys you, you can always use the low gain mode.
 
Like some others here, I too feel there is a better bass presence and more dynamics when in high gain mode. Almost all of my listening is through my 650 though, so no hum at all when using them. YMMV...
 
All of my listening has been exclusively with the stock tube as I have no others to roll at the moment. Sounds fine IMO, and I love the power this amp has on tap. I think Schiit created  a winner here folks. I was wondering if the hybrid design would give me enough "tube flavor" to be happy. I can say that it absolutely does. It definitely sounds different than my SS Emotiva DC-1's HP amp, but there's no distortion (even at high volume levels) like I had expected there to be. My expectations were exceeded, to be honest.
 
I do really want to try some rolling, and will as soon as my budget allows. For now though, I am enjoying the schiit out of this amp!

 

[jfoxvol]

  Thank you for the follow up and additional info. Nice to see the Bimby + Vali 2+ HD-650 make a great team. Been drooling over the Schiit multibits for a while now.
 
Re: The Vali 2 and hum/noise.
 
My Vali 2 does have a hum when you use low z 'phones and have the gain on high. For example my Grado SR80i will have a hum when on high gain mode. IMO, this hum sounds like an electrical hum of sorts. It does not change volume with the amp and disappears completely in low gain mode. Additionally, with my HD-650, I cannot hear the hum with either gain mode.
 
The hum is hardly noticeable to me, and I actually didn't notice it at all until another forum member pointed it out and I went back to listen for it. Sure enough, it's there, but it's far from a deal breaker, and if it really annoys you, you can always use the low gain mode.
 
Like some others here, I too feel there is a better bass presence and more dynamics when in high gain mode. Almost all of my listening is through my 650 though, so no hum at all when using them. YMMV...
 
All of my listening has been exclusively with the stock tube as I have no others to roll at the moment. Sounds fine IMO, and I love the power this amp has on tap. I think Schiit created  a winner here folks. I was wondering if the hybrid design would give me enough "tube flavor" to be happy. I can say that it absolutely does. It definitely sounds different than my SS Emotiva DC-1's HP amp, but there's no distortion (even at high volume levels) like I had expected there to be. My expectations were exceeded, to be honest.
 
I do really want to try some rolling, and will as soon as my budget allows. For now though, I am enjoying the schiit out of this amp!

I'm still listening to that setup.  I've swapped back to the JAN Philips 6922.  I spec'd my tube to be low noise and microphonics.  With regards to the noise, that's why there's a gain switch.  I have some low z that are reasonably efficient that work well in both settings.  I agree that high gain has more authority to it but it is an evolution of an amp that was quite noise and this now has tremendously lower (and two gain modes plus other features).  The noise in the Vali 1 never bothered me a bit.  I still have it and still enjoy playing it.  The Vali 1 is like a lap dancer with a master's degree and the Vali 2 is more like a dirty librarian (I watch too much Top Gear).  Glad you're enjoying.  I'd highly highly recommend a Jan Philips 6922 (~40 bucks but worth it) or a 6CG7 (either 50 for NOS RCA or 20 for Repro from EH, the latter I have and love it).  Until then, just keep enjoying the stock tube.  

 

[OldRoadToad]

I have the money but reading much of this thread has caused me to lose the fever. 
 
I want VU meters on the front.  Functioning VU meters, that is.   That should do it for me.  A single tube is enough and the power output is adequate for any sane person that wants to keep hearing the world around them.  As for tube rolling?  I don't wanna roll schiit.  I listen to music, not equipment.  I look at the equipment while I am listening to it and I can tell ya that a pair of VU meters strategically placed beneath the priapic tower of that lone tube would make it sweet.
 
I ask only that a pair of appropriately sized VU meters be placed on the front of the Vali 2.  This would necessitate a new name.  In keeping with the Schiit Theme it could be called the....ToadStool. 
 
Not very Nordic I know but when you get right down to it, "stool" is just schiit with different letters.   One could just insert some runish looking graphics somewhere and by Grabthar's hammer there 'tis.
 
Or not.  How about Vali of thee Toad?  No?  Ok.  Vali 2.1 or Vali 3.
 
But I still think VU meters would make it so boss, so gear, so bitchin', so toes on the nose, so fab...  In closing I would like to point out that I am not just shooting the schiit here.  To paraphrase a line from a film that many of us saw more years ago than some might care to admit to, you want to give us all an eargasm, then build it  and yup, we will come. 
 
Yes, I know.  I spelled it in the non-porn way but doubtless you get the tie-in.
 
Damn but I am in a mood this dark and not so stormy night.  Besides, "Vali of thee Toad" sounds bitchin'.
 
Thee Toad