[negura]

 
I have heard from industry insiders that they sell more units if they position their products at a higher price point. 
 
The mentality is, if they charge a lower price, then people will think that it's not as good. So basically, it's the consumer's fault. If we didn't pay it, manufacturers would never charge it. So how do we stop the vicious cycle? Consumers would have to put the brakes on for a long while (supply and demand), before manus would be forced to lower the insane prices.
 
10 years ago, these same products would have never fetched these insane prices. Does anyone think that Audeze would have set the $4000 price on the LCD4, if the HE1000 wasn't $3000? I think not. We are fueling this trend.

 
Great post. Way too many people, due to lack of experience, excitement or whatever are willing to fetch some of these ridiculous prices. Understandable and I was first hand guilty of this myself more than once. 
 
 I've said it many times - the HEK are imo not worth any price premium over their previous flagship. After hearing 7-8 pairs of HEK in my view the correct price for them is less than $1000 (this is based on hearing them on a multitude of high-end gear, including my own). While at it: Audeze LCD-3Fs are worth perhaps $800-1000 depending on sample luck. 
 
I am quite happy to pay $1300 for the HE-6s and a similar price give or take for the HD800s.  The SR-009s are also overpriced for the SQ. Based on the lowest competitive denominator my correct price for them has to be $1300 and the same for the current SR007s (which have to be modded to perform their best, but this applies to many others). Also the same goes for the Abyss. None of these 5 headphones are overall better than the others imo. Different, yes. But these are the very best of the current crop imo.
 
And I am talking sound quality here. Build quality can indeed commend or defer a premium.

 

[saidentary]

   
Great post. Way too many people, due to lack of experience, excitement or whatever are willing to fetch some of these ridiculous prices. Understandable and I was first hand guilty of this myself more than once. 
 
 I've said it many times - the HEK are imo not worth any price premium over their previous flagship. After hearing 7-8 pairs of HEK in my view the correct price for them is less than $1000 (this is based on hearing them on a multitude of high-end gear, including my own). While at it: Audeze LCD-3Fs are worth perhaps $800-1000 depending on sample luck. 
 
I am quite happy to pay $1300 for the HE-6s and a similar price give or take for the HD800s.  The SR-009s are also overpriced for the SQ. Based on the lowest competitive denominator my correct price for them has to be $1300 and the same for the current SR007s (which have to be modded to perform their best, but this applies to many others). Also the same goes for the Abyss. None of these 5 headphones are overall better than the others imo. Different, yes. But these are the very best of the current crop imo.

I LIKE this.  A LOT.  From now on, I would like YOU to be the person who determines pricing for newly released headphones.  Also, your prices should be implemented retroactively on all existing models, effective immediately, except for the HD-800s and HE-6s.  Someone else needs to set those prices.  
 
In all seriousness, though, I think anything over $1000 is really stretching it for a headphone--ANY headphone.  The only reason I'd be willing to pay more is due to my perception of the sound quality.  The fact that I'm willing to pay that much doesn't mean that I like to pay that much.  Actually I hate the high prices.   

 

[negura]

In theory each buyer can and should be a factor in this. In practice it rarely works like that as some others have said.  
Audeze have been getting away with it for years (I actually do like and did/do own some of their headphones - yet I still think the pricing for SQ as well QC are off). Is there any coincidence in the ever-escalating prices for arguable SQ, BQ & QC improvements?
 
I am not sure there is an easy answer to this. But a service to the community as well as to the vendors would be imo to be very honest about our experiences. Of course some/many already are.

 

[sahmen]

In a market system it's *always* the consumer's fault. A market system only works if the consumer if very well informed and acts quite rational and in his own interest. And that's why market systems are pretty much same as utopian as communism&co.
But that's way too much philosophy for a HP forum

Great, let's do away with "too much philosophy" and come down to the level of "common sense".  That said, what is the best "commonsensical" approach for the average enthusiast to adopt in the face of this madness of crazily escalating prices of HP gear?  Recently, after moaning and whining impotently about the price of the He-1000, which I still eagerly want to own and listen to, I went on a kind of "binge" and got myself instead an almost new He-6 and an equally almost new Beyerdynamic T1, as well as 2 new headphone amplifiers (Audiogd NFB1 amp, and the Cavalli Audio Liquid Carbon-still on pre-order), all for a total price that was still about $500 less than that of one single He-1000. I still cannot afford the He-1000, but the acquisition of two Summit-fi HPs  (or are they to be classified as  "previously summit-fi," if this classification makes any sense in this rather crazy hobby?) and two great amps sort of calmed my frustration.  Nowl, I am quite happy with all those four purchases, although I also sort of know that I was able to get those two "Summit-fi" (or "previously summit-fi") cans at those crazily discounted prices only because both Hifiman and  Beyerdynamic had issued new "summit-fi releases" (the He-1000 and the T1 Gen 2) which had captivated the fancy of other enthusiasts (early adopters, and those who must have the "latest and greatest" -- no sarcasm or ill-will intended against these enthusiasts), enthusiasts who were all too eager to jettison the earlier models on the market, so that they can go on a "honeymoon" of renewed audio bliss with the newer releases  The point is that I still do not know whether the choices I made were the "common sense" ones, because I am still curious about the He-1000, (and for that matter, the new Beyerdynamic T1 gen 2) and would like to own it, although I do enjoy the He-6 and the T1 quite a lot.  My question is : are there any real "common sense" options available to enthusiasts on the market, or does it always come down to individual subjective decisions and choices, regardless of how increasingly crazy the new prices might get to be?  If the second option is the answer, then I have no hope of the consumer ever taming the "fury" of this new trend escalating prices in the headphone market.  I sincerely hope, though, that a common sense approach might be available.

 

[sahmen]

   
 
In all seriousness, though, I think anything over $1000 is really stretching it for a headphone--ANY headphone.  The only reason I'd be willing to pay more is due to my perception of the sound quality.  The fact that I'm willing to pay that much doesn't mean that I like to pay that much.  Actually I hate the high prices.   

Agreed completely.

 

[richard51]

 
Quote:

  Great, let's do away with "too much philosophy" and come down to the level of "common sense".  That said, what is the best "commonsensical" approach for the average enthusiast to adopt in the face of this madness of crazily escalating prices of HP gear?  Recently, after moaning and whining impotently about the price of the He-1000, which I still eagerly want to own and listen to, I went on a kind of "binge" and got myself instead an almost new He-6 and an equally almost new Beyerdynamic T1, as well as 2 new headphone amplifiers (Audiogd NFB1 amp, and the Cavalli Audio Liquid Carbon-still on pre-order), all for a total price that was still about $500 less than that of one single He-1000. I still cannot afford the He-1000, but the acquisition of two Summit-fi HPs  (or are they to be classified as  "previously summit-fi," if this classification makes any sense in this rather crazy hobby?) and two great amps sort of calmed my frustration.  Nowl, I am quite happy with all those four purchases, although I also sort of know that I was able to get those two "Summit-fi" (or "previously summit-fi") cans at those crazily discounted prices only because both Hifiman and  Beyerdynamic had issued new "summit-fi releases" (the He-1000 and the T1 Gen 2) which had captivated the fancy of other enthusiasts (early adopters, and those who must have the "latest and greatest" -- no sarcasm or ill-will intended against these enthusiasts), enthusiasts who were all too eager to jettison the earlier models on the market, so that they can acquire on a "honeymoon" of renewed audio bliss the newer releases  The point is that I still do not know whether the choices I made were the "common sense" ones, because I am still curious about the He-1000, (and for that matter, the new Beyerdynamic T1 gen 2) and would like to own it, although I do enjoy the He-6 and the T1 quite a lot.  My question is : are there any real "common sense" options available to enthusiasts on the market, or does it always come down to individual subject decisions and choices, regardless of how increasingly crazy the new prices might get to be?  If the second option is the answer, then I have no hope of the consumer ever taming the "fury" of this new trend escalating prices in the headphone market.  I sincerely hope, though, that a common sense approach might be available.

very interesting.... My therapeutic orders was for me an headphone (Fostex TH7B price in canada 60 dollars new ) that sound almost on par(more natural timbre but less soundstage) with the Stax basic system and with my he 400 run with a speakers amp.... My question where is the headphone with a realistic rendering of timbre and a good soundstage ?... i will pay 1000 dollars at most...Not willing to invest 3000 in a headphone...

 
by the way nobody will trust me with a headphone that is so good for this price...Fostex TH7B  ... I love my 3 headphones but this one is the better ....a 3000 dollars headphone its too much....in 2 or 3 years they will build headphone with graphene membrane that will outclass any other headphone....

my Fostex and he 400 and Stax too...

 

[saidentary]

  Great, let's do away with "too much philosophy" and come down to the level of "common sense".  ...............................Recently, after moaning and whining impotently about the price of the He-1000, which I still eagerly want to own and listen to, I went on a kind of "binge" and got myself .......... almost new He-6 and an .............almost new Beyerdynamic T1, as well as 2 new headphone amplifiers (Audiogd NFB1 amp, and the Cavalli Audio Liquid Carbon-still on pre-order), all for a total price that was still about $500 less than that of one single He-1000. ....................................................... Nowl, I am quite happy with all those four purchases, although I also sort of know that I was able to get those two "Summit-fi" (or "previously summit-fi") cans at those crazily discounted prices only because both Hifiman and  Beyerdynamic had issued new "summit-fi releases" (the He-1000 and the T1 Gen 2) which had captivated the fancy of other enthusiasts (early adopters, and those who must have the "latest and greatest" -- no sarcasm or ill-will intended against these enthusiasts), enthusiasts who were all too eager to jettison the earlier models ...........................  The point is that I still do not know whether the choices I made were the "common sense" ones, because I am still curious about the He-1000, (and for that matter, the new Beyerdynamic T1 gen 2) ....................although I do enjoy the He-6 and the T1 quite a lot.  My question is : are there any real "common sense" options available to enthusiasts on the market, or does it always come down to individual subject decisions and choices, regardless of how increasingly crazy the new prices might get to be? .....................................

It sounds to me like you did GREAT.  Here's what I believe:
1. The "older" stuff you got is still just as great now as it ever was, at least in absolute terms.  The presence of a "newer" model didn't change the molecular structure of the "older" version and magically make it worse.
2. The newer stuff may not really be better than the old stuff, and may even be worse.  Case in point: Tyll retired the Denon AH-D5000s from the "wall of fame" because they were discontinued feels the newer replacement version Denons aren't "up to snuff." Here's a link to where he says that on Innerfidelity.com
 
So one common sense approach is to buy second-hand.  It's a great idea.  That's how I got my Denon AH-D7000s.  Right here on head-fi.
 
Also, there WILL be a practical ceiling for what people will pay.  I'm with negura and others in that I rather resent the higher prices and I WILL NOT just keep paying more and more.  The only reason I bought the HE-1000 is that, unlike Negura, I am blown away by the sound.  But neither of us is "right" or "wrong" about our assessment, just different.  But BOTH of us think the ever-increasing prices are a bad thing.  Most of us can't AFFORD to pay those kind of prices anyway, except on a very few select occasions.  So I think the (ever upward, upward, UPWARD) trend in pricing is unsustainable over time.

 

[prot]

Great, let's do away with "too much philosophy" and come down to the level of "common sense".  That said, what is the best "commonsensical" approach for the average enthusiast to adopt in the face of this madness of crazily escalating prices of HP gear?  Recently, after moaning and whining impotently about the price of the He-1000, which I still eagerly want to own and listen to, I went on a kind of "binge" and got myself instead an almost new He-6 and an equally almost new Beyerdynamic T1, as well as 2 new headphone amplifiers (Audiogd NFB1 amp, and the Cavalli Audio Liquid Carbon-still on pre-order), all for a total price that was still about $500 less than that of one single He-1000. I still cannot afford the He-1000, but the acquisition of two Summit-fi HPs  (or are they to be classified as  "previously summit-fi," if this classification makes any sense in this rather crazy hobby?) and two great amps sort of calmed my frustration.  Nowl, I am quite happy with all those four purchases, although I also sort of know that I was able to get those two "Summit-fi" (or "previously summit-fi") cans at those crazily discounted prices only because both Hifiman and  Beyerdynamic had issued new "summit-fi releases" (the He-1000 and the T1 Gen 2) which had captivated the fancy of other enthusiasts (early adopters, and those who must have the "latest and greatest" -- no sarcasm or ill-will intended against these enthusiasts), enthusiasts who were all too eager to jettison the earlier models on the market, so that they can acquire on a "honeymoon" of renewed audio bliss the newer releases  The point is that I still do not know whether the choices I made were the "common sense" ones, because I am still curious about the He-1000, (and for that matter, the new Beyerdynamic T1 gen 2) and would like to own it, although I do enjoy the He-6 and the T1 quite a lot.  My question is : are there any real "common sense" options available to enthusiasts on the market, or does it always come down to individual subject decisions and choices, regardless of how increasingly crazy the new prices might get to be?  If the second option is the answer, then I have no hope of the consumer ever taming the "fury" of this new trend escalating prices in the headphone market.  I sincerely hope, though, that a common sense approach might be available.

I wish there was such a "common sense approach". But most people are neither rational nor have much of that supposedly common sense. When someone parades a new shinny toy in front of you and a few people left and right yell "wooow", you'll want it .. badly. Many will simply ruin themselves for that wow shinny toy. And those "many" make the rules, whether we like it or not.
And that's basically headfi for you. A temple for the lust for sound, where shinny toys are paraded with pride. So .. enjoy it while it lasts

P.S.
I find negura's numbers quite arbitrary but I definitely agree with the rest, There is no "better sound" above ~1K, just various flavours. And it's obscene to ask so much money for a pair of cans .. especially since most dont even have the BQ required in that price range.
But anyway, that's not gonna change .. at least not for good. So .. again .. enjoy it while it lasts!

 

[saidentary]

I wish there was such a "common sense approach". But most people are neither rational nor have much of that supposedly common sense. When someone parades a new shinny toy in front of you and a few people left and right yell "wooow", you'll want it .. badly. Many will simply ruin themselves for that wow shinny toy. And those "many" make the rules, whether we like it or not.
And that's basically headfi for you. A temple for the lust for sound, where shinny toys are paraded with pride. So .. enjoy it while it lasts

To a certain extent that's definitely true.  But the fact that so many of us are openly bitching about the prices is a good thing, in my opinion.  Ironically, this seems to be one of the very rare things we can all agree on.  I also think that some of the comments (about products being touted as the latest and greatest by the manufacturers) are quite sober and not always favorable.  This can be a trough crowd, and that's also a good thing, IMO.

 

[saidentary]

I am not sure there is an easy answer to this. But a service to the community as well as to the vendors would be imo to be very honest about our experiences. Of course some/many already are.

Crucially important point, IMO.  Agreed completely.

 

[immtbiker]

In the mid 2000's, we were in a lull and it was quite a task to find a decent used headphone, let alone a new one. Then Sennheiser came out with the HD800, amd Fang came out with the HE-6. The Audeze joined the club. It was so bad, that a $2900 Sony R-10 sold easily for $7000, and the Orpheus system was going for $15000! Then came the SR-009.
 
Now, we are surrounded by an influx of great headphones and the choices are growing each year. While it is a great time to be in this hobby, it is no longer for the middle class pocketbook, if you want only the best. This has always been the case for the 2-channel crowd.

 

[ufospls2]

  In the mid 2000's, we were in a lull and it was quite a task to find a decent used headphone, let alone a new one. Then Sennheiser came out with the HD800, amd Fang came out with the HE-6. The Audeze joined the club. It was so bad, that a $2900 Sony R-10 sold easily for $7000, and the Orpheus system was going for $15000! Then came the SR-009.
 
Now, we are surrounded by an influx of great headphones and the choices are growing each year. While it is a great time to be in this hobby, it is no longer for the middle class pocketbook, if you want only the best. This has always been the case for the 2-channel crowd.

 
In all seriousness though, I think if you want the BEST, it has never been within reach of the middle class pocket book. The great thing about headphones right now, is you can have a pretty great sounding set up for a pretty decent price. Now...back to HE1000 impressions.

 

[Articnoise]

Great now the topic’s in all flagship headphone threads is that all but this and this headphone which you personally happens to like and which was developed many years ago is exceedingly overpriced.

 

If it’s really true and almost all flagship are overpriced now and the market for SOTA is packed by consumers that buy everything only it has a hefty price and good marketing. It must be a golden opportunity for all the experts here to start your own headphone company and prove it. Really it can’t be that hard if the majority of today’s flagships headphones cost 2-3 times its real value.   

 

[conquerator2]

So back to the HEK talk...
 
I subjectively feel that the HEK is priced fairly compared to the other, more expensive headphones like the LCD4, Stax SR009 or the Abyss.
Above the 1000$ price mark [some may say even lower] I feel it is most about tonal balance and one's own hearing pleasure...
As all those headphones should be able to compete on a technical level, considering the price point and performance equity.
Would it be great if the HEK was around 1999$ instead? Sure! [And the trickled-down HEX will be] but I still enjoy the HEK more than anything else!
 
I consistently preferred the HEK over the likes of the 007/009, HD800, Odin, LCD EL-8 through LCD3 [liked the X most], Orpheus, Kingsound estats, HFM lower offerings [except for the HE6, which I will not judge as I have not heard it on an expensive, synergistic setup], Dharma [preproduction], both Mr. Speakers [though the Ethers at half the price are good value!], K812 [well... but the K7XX is amazing value though!], MyST Isophones, German planar prototype all Audio Technicas [have not heard the R70x], all Phillipses [X2 great value!] and everything else that I heard this year at Canjam London and in Germany. I have not heard either of the Sony R10s [:/] and I've purposefully avoided the Abyss [as Abyss lite is still out of my price range + I find it unethical to take off 1000$ by removing a cable, a case and a stand from the package... let alone selling a 2200$ [!] headphone cable -_- #nosupport]. I also have not heard the HEX or the LCD4...
Is it the best at everything? No, but ti doesn't have to be. Being great+ at everything I value without any significant flaws is easily enough for me as this is the lone headphone in my experience that is.
 
The HD800, HE90, Dharma and Staxes pull details better, but they don't do it for me in the bass presence and [lower] treble smoothness. Plus, comfort [on my head - HD800 + Dharma - good. Staxes - bad]
The MyST has amazing bass quantity but lacks linearity in the mids and treble clarity.
The LCDs do bass really well but they either lack treble extension [LCD2], treble smoothness [LCD3] or just have narrow soundstage [all]. Plus, both the MyST and Audeze are too heavy [the Audeze being particularly uncomfortable on my head].
The Odin I didn't like on first sight and listen. [and I don't find the price tag justified].
Cheaper HFMs are quite good in most ways, but they usually had at least one major flaw to my ears [400S - lack of extension on either frequency extreme, 400i - lack of treble extension and realistic decay, 560 - lower treble peak], though the 560 is realistically quite close and certainly my pick under a grand.
Mr. Speakers Ether are the best planar under 2 grands IMO, though to my ears it doesn't quite posses the imaging, detail retrieval and spaciousness of the HEK. Still, it is the other headphone that has no major flaws on my list, so it'd be my second pick for sure.
 
I value the following aspects a lot - bass [extension, tightness, impact], smoothness [lower treble especially], extension [subbass in the bass, air/treble extension in the treble], vortually sibilance free experience, smooth with good musicality and even and tonal FR, detail retrieval, precise imaging and separation, good soundstage dimensionality, comfort, long term listening enjoyment [as little harshness as possible]. The headphone also has to perform well with virtual surround sound [DH/SBX].
 
Above all, overall music enjoyment, while pulling as many details while retaining smoothness and without any abrasive peaks or dips. I do not require or want a headphone to be absolutely transparent or revealing as I listen to so many genres of various quality and mastering standards it simply would not go. I need a headphone that does not emphasize sibilance 
 
So, yeah. The HEK ticks all the boxes. Wanting a high level of sonic fidelity, coupled with smoothness puts me at a difficult spot... Not many choices here 

 

 

[Youth]

Even then it's still overpriced in my opninion. And companies will keep raising the pricetags because many people doesn't question the absurd prices.