Off topic in Sound Science. the new old moderation.

[castleofargh]

https://www.head-fi.org/articles/posting-guidelines.14048/ :

Respect the OP's (original poster's) intentions and try and keep comments on topic. If you feel a strong need to (continue to) discuss a particular, but off-topic subject in a thread, start your own thread and direct post a link in the thread rather than derail that thread. If it's not a discussion worthy for a thread, consider taking it to private messages.
If it is a one-off reply, you can also put the reply in a spoiler tag and rename it "Off-topic".

My easy going moderation has resulted in "give them an inch, they'll take a mile". It has to stop for the sake of this very section and anybody who will come seeking answers in those threads. A topic is not your personal chat room. Unless you make a thread for that very purpose.
Please follow the simple guidelines in the above quote. I will actively delete new derailing posts.
OPs have trace amount of authority and responsibility on the flow of their threads. They can and should remember to use that authority to move things in the direction they want. I'll help more if I read something to that effect in the topic, in a report, or even as a PM.

 

[bigshot]

I think the users can take care of this themselves by simply dismissing off topic discussions. The only problem is when one of our "special" guests goes off on a monologue, and no rule is going to prevent that. I've come to the conclusion that they can't help it. But it isn't just mods who have to wade through the posts full of repetitive blather and off topic discussion of phonograph cartridges, avant-garde composers of noise music, and the way jet engines perform in a total vacuum. I guess that stuff is more entertaining than the pointless arguments over whether blind testing is bogus and "even my wife can hear the difference".

In general, I'm in favor of laissez faire moderation when it comes to drifting content and draconian moderation when it comes to people who are intentionally argumentative and rude.

 

[castleofargh]

Nothing here will stop posters from discussing what they want. The aim is not censure, but very basic organization for the sake of everybody else.

 

[bigshot]

Disorganized threads are a result of disorganized minds. We have more than our fair share of those!

 

[WoodyLuvr]

Moderately, I fully concur; let's try to keep this on topic! Even belatedly

Objectively, I beg for clearer more finely defined instructions on how one should post in this here thread... am I replying correctly? Is there a specific reply format template available per chance? Be nice if we had a thread & reply stat pop-up window scoring thread health.

Subjectively... so, what do you guys think about them sexy cables that effect the Harman Curve? Oh, and by the way just read that dither & jitter are grossly affecting my analog components and am very concerned that I need to upgrade soonest.

 

[DaveStarWalker]

In general, I'm in favor of laissez faire moderation when it comes to drifting content and draconian moderation when it comes to people who are intentionally argumentative and rude.

Agree....

 

[cirrus101]

I think the users can take care of this themselves by simply dismissing off topic discussions. (...)

In general, I'm in favor of laissez faire moderation when it comes to drifting content

Ah, if only your words had any value when weighted against your actions!

 

[chef8489]

One thing I am noticing just as in the last cable discussion is the cable believers come in to troll to get the discussion shut down and the thread locked as evident of the last one. It should be as like what happens when we mention science in their threads. we get banned from their threads and treated as trolls. When they are truly trolling and it is evident, they should get banned and their posts be deleted . The thread should continue as sometimes people are truly interested in the real scientific answers.

 

[bigshot]

The mods have cleaned up the cable thread a bit.

I wish we could have more discussion of topics and less of people's subjective impressions, but the steady flow of trolling has switched us into reactive mode... we only reply to stupid posts, we don't generate informational posts ourselves.

 

[chef8489]

The mods have cleaned up the cable thread a bit.

I wish we could have more discussion of topics and less of people's subjective impressions, but the steady flow of trolling has switched us into reactive mode... we only reply to stupid posts, we don't generate informational posts ourselves.

Yes but now the thread is locked just as the last troll wanted.

 

[sander99]

I think the thread name "How do I convince people that audio cables DO NOT make a difference" was an unlucky choice. This is a nice oppertunity to think about a good name for a new cable thread. Maybe something like "When is a cable good enough for the job (and when can replacing it by a "better" or more expensive cable not give an audible objective improvement)."
Any other suggestions for a good cable thread name?

 

[The Jester]

Maybe “Methods for evaluating audio cables”,
If there can be advice on a relatively simple DIY setup, switchbox ,level balancing etc to at least give some sort of repeatable baseline reference, with cable “A” a basic, good quality item vs cable of choice ..
Then it’s a simple request “how are you making evaluations ?”,
The problem with internet reviews and forums in general is too many try to use them as some sort of comparison to buy unseen (unheard) online, so the proliferation of “what’s the best xxx cable for the money” which in itself is relative, “who’s money” ?, a $50 cable could equate from a nice bottle of wine over dinner to a weeks groceries …

 

[castleofargh]

One thing I am noticing just as in the last cable discussion is the cable believers come in to troll to get the discussion shut down and the thread locked as evident of the last one. It should be as like what happens when we mention science in their threads. we get banned from their threads and treated as trolls. When they are truly trolling and it is evident, they should get banned and their posts be deleted . The thread should continue as sometimes people are truly interested in the real scientific answers.

What I noticed is that some dude who doesn't know much but has already spent a lot, arrives on a thread. He surely doesn't have much to say that is correct and really won't have much desire to learn about the reasons why his investments were probably a mistake.
That's the 5.1typical(more than stereotypical) opening scene.
We know from science that it's a lot of efforts not to antagonize such people, and that anytime we do, we galvanize their original beliefs.
The way to proceed is usually psychological manipulation and I'm not a big fan of that, provide data without judgement(certainly no judgement about them in particular!), try when possible to make the "subject" think he came up with the new idea. Compliment him when he acknowledges something true... That way, because of our brain we often tend to feel like we were always thinking the new stuff and the old idea pretty much vanishes from the mind.
It's not simple to do or control, just as being a good educator is not easy. It's even harder when all your efforts get ruined by snarky remarks and absolutism from other posters on the forum.

Now let's think about what happened 3 times in a month with 3 different people:
You guys kept on pushing a narrative of cables making zero difference(which is at the very least conditional to audibility, and on occasion, very much false). You're almost completely unable to discuss a topic without accusing the one you talk to of something or treating him like an idiot. Sometimes it's hard not to get personal, I know that. But what I saw this last month was an active search for conflict. It's like you couldn't wait for a new random guy to come and spam him until he breaks.
Sure trolling isn't welcomed, but personal attacks are also in the terms of service. A few of you did that repeatedly to several people this month in a single thread, should I get you banned to properly enforce moderation?

I blame people from Sound science for turning those 3 different guys in the cable thread into trolls. The 3 of them came with their views and their anecdotes(mostly wrong conclusions) while being polite and not actively antagonistic. They left(by force) angry from constantly being insulted and called a troll. What could they do? Insult you very explicitely and get moderated(first guy), or leave and have you gloating about how well you handled this ugly troll, or use sarcasm as a weapon and indeed become a troll(the most likely outcome for someone with some self control).
You guys haven't just been feeding them when there is but one rule about trolls and it's to not feed them, you went tit for tat for pages and pages. You pushed them, entertained them, really encouraged them to keep replying and made them into trolls pretty much on your own. I think you got those guys exactly where you wanted!
Because if it's not where you wanted them to go, you dramatically suck at having a proper conversation.

On that one thread I would go to bed and often wake up to find like 4 new pages with 3 to 4 people involved in writing them. You guys kept wishing for them to stop replying, but you never did.
I did not see much of a moral high ground in that thread. Just people trying to have the last word.

I'm fed up with behaviors that ask to handle a troll and proceed to bang on his cage continuously for hours. It's hypocritical and in case it's not obvious, it makes moderation nightmarish. I'm not paid to do this crap.
I closed the thread because in about a month, it's nearly a hundred posts that got deleted. And a majority of those posts were from you guys. You have been making most of the spam, personal attacks, and force feeding of trolls in that thread. None of those mass deletion made anybody change his behavior. You apparently expect for admins to keep cleaning after you forever and be fine with that.
To you, that other guy is wrong and everything bad in the world is his fault. But what about dancing with him for hours, and saying "science this" without giving him relevant links for information?

From my point of view, there is very little difference in the behaviors, and yes, I'm fed up with it. I closed the thread because I had enough of cleaning after you all.
The first guy got locked out of a topic for a week for insulting others after I asked to stop.
The second one seemed to find us funny and played along a little too hard. An admin put him on the naughty list and his post need to be accepted by an admin to become visible.
The last one, T 1000, Well I could have locked him out of the thread, but as I explained, I'm less and less convinced that it would have changed anything. You'd soon find a new playmate and do the same all over again. I got him in PM and apparently on top of a lack of knowledge about psychology and biases, there's a somewhat problematic language barrier. Things probably won't end well for him as he's also a little spammy. Time will tell.

You're all fed up, I'm fed up, admins came and moderated more in a month than they did in Sound Science over the last year. Things are getting serious and unless some of you make a real effort when it comes to baiting and being baited, insulting and being insulted, I doubt any of the more active posters in this section will survive a stricter moderation. At some point, we're not so much interested in who came first between the chicken and the egg, we're just looking to stop the issue by removing what causes trouble when we're looking at it. Knowing that someone else started it, that's hardly relevant after pages of proving that you're just as willing to fight and cause a mess.
I mean, you guys just hijacked another thread to continue the same BS about cables. And as if to show zero respect for people or rules, you did it for almost 3 pages in one day on my thread about stopping long off topics.
I say, stop blaming "them" for everything and look in a mirror from time to time.

If you want a cable thread, make one. The last one hardly had 10 pages put together of documented cable facts.

 

[bfreedma]

I disagree and know I'm walking a tightrope with the following - I hope this is seen as constructive criticism and an alternative model for solving the problem. Let the chips fall where they may:

The reason trolls get banged on here is because "the regulars" have come to realize that the moderation in Sound Science has, to be kind, a different threshold for allowing trolls to continue in a thread when compared to the balance of this site.

Should we all do better with limiting responses to trolls? Absolutely.

Would moderating Sound Science with the same threshold as the rest of Head-Fi eliminate the majority of these discussions? Absolutely. And if we regulars can't get in line, then we will be moderated as well. As it should be.

I'd rather be held to the same standards as the balance of this site than go through the recurring trollfest Sound Science has become over the last few months.

I also suspect that the overall quality of posts would go up without the time and energy being invested in the current crop of trolls. Any chance we can test that theory? It should make your job easier as well, @castleofargh

 

[bigshot]

It is NOT our fault. We always start polite and informative, and they dismiss us. When there is a break after it gets hot, we go back to giving them the benefit of the doubt and we’re met with disrespect and our sharing is ignored again.

It may be difficult to teach, but it’s impossible to teach someone who refuses to listen. When I was in college, if a student behaved like that and disrupted the learning experience of the whole class, they were quietly ejected and they could think about what they did wrong in the hallway.

Troll whispering won’t work. You’re not asking one person to hold their tongue, you’re asking the whole group. You might as well expect cats to submit to herding. That just won’t work. BFreedma is right. A quiet thread ban for a week whenever someone disrupts the discussion after being warned in PM is the way to deal with this. When this guy immediately transplanted it to this thread, he should have gotten a week long thread ban here too. Three thread bans concurrently and it should become a 30 day forum ban. That is how I always dealt with this stuff when I was a forum Admin. If I get out of line, feel free to thread ban me for a week. See if it helps. I won’t complain if the bans are applied even handedly. Time outs are constructive. They aren’t necessarily punishment.

The reason for our problem has its root in the ban on ABX and placebo discussion in the rest of Head Fi. Bfreedma is right in saying that there’s a double standard… we are ejected for simply mentioning ABX in the rest of the forum, but everyone else can come in here and crap all over our discussions with anti science blather and “it’s their right because it’s an open forum”. That just isn’t right. Separate but unequal.

If moderation isn’t applied fairly and with the intent of protecting the science theme of this forum, we users are forced to take it into our own hands. We don’t have the ability to ban, but we have the ability to tell someone to shut the youknowwhat up.

This recent guy tempted me to create a thread highlighting all the stupid stuff he says in other threads on Head Fi. He has his profile hidden, but you can use the search function to find all of his posts. I restrained myself from doing that, but if he can repeatedly crap up our forum and grind all of our normal conversation to a halt, I tend to feel justified in humiliating him in the public square.

We have some “unique kinds of people” among the regulars here, but I have no problem with them participating and engaging with them in discussions/arguments. I’m sure the regulars who consider me a “unique kind of person” feel the same way about me, even when I get under their skin. But someone who comes into the forum cold and makes a concerted effort to piss people off and refuses to follow the topic of the forum, doesn’t belong here.

We’ve done our part. Since this banishment group was created, I haven’t posted outside of it in the rest of Head Fi. All of those other forums are safe havens from our kind of logic and facts. We stay in our lane. And Bfreedma is also correct that we contribute a great deal to the site. Go to Google and type in a few keywords or technical questions and you’ll see our posts come up. You can’t buy that kind of organic traffic. It should be appreciated, not disparaged.

If the goal is to get rid of those pesky sound science guys, allowing this kind of thing to continue is an effective way of doing it. But as Bfreedma says, we won’t go quietly. This won’t just go away if we all take a nice nap.