[FunkyBassMan]

Just because you don't know something, it doesn't mean nobody knows anything. Your ignorance isn't contagious (thank goodness!)

No, of course - there are lots of things I don't know. Very few people would be ignorant enough to think they know everything there is to know about something, be it digital audio, amplification or otherwise.

You were the one who said that "new and improved" always meant new and improved.

I never said anything of the sort.

It's a sign of serious weakness that when one can't argue against what people actually say and have to argue against things they don't say and never have.

 

[KinGensai]

I thought he said that he heard a difference so he believed that DACs weren't transparent. We've already pointed out how important controls are to prevent expectation bias and perceptual error, but he doesn't believe in those either. So he's in a loop of ignorance- he doesn't understand how it works and he won't do the one thing necessary to be able to understand.

Unless I'm mixing him up with another poster... that's possible. They all sound the same after a while.

You're right, the entire post in context makes that argument.

I don't disagree with him as far as audible differences go, the V60 had a negative qualitative difference from the V50 due to a poor software implementation of the filter, and there seems to be a tuning decision by B&O and Meridian to attenuate the 4k to 5k response deliberately whereas the direct PCM signal from the V60 has noticably elevated response there in comparison. That doesn't have anything to do with audible transparency though because that's talking about accuracy of the generated analog signal in relation to the digital signal, right?

 

[gregorio]

As you clearly enjoy arguing against things people never said …

You're the one who started this argument and then continued it even in the face of reliable evidence (from an encyclopaedia), with no evidence of your own beyond the fact that apparently you can’t imagine it! Not sure a mirror could help in your case. lol.

You are correct about argument from ignorance being a fallacy, but I don't think AussieMick is guilty of that one in particular because I don't see a positive claim in the quote that is reliant on an unproven negative claim, he's just claiming ignorance on the topic.

Yes possibly, I’m not sure. His statement: “… the impression grows that we’re a long way from knowing (perhaps I just mean a long way from proving?) all there is to know in the suite of measurements available to us.” - This implies to me a variation on the “science doesn’t know everything” fallacy. I parsed his assertion effectively as: “I hear a difference between two specific DACs which have measurable differences way below audibility (with the exception of voltage output levels), it therefore seems clear DACs aren’t a solved technology and this could be rationally explained by the fact that we don’t know everything about measurements.” It’s certainly possible this interpretation is incorrect, hence why “I’m not sure”.

G

 

[KinGensai]

You're the one who started this argument and then continued it even in the face of reliable evidence (from an encyclopaedia), with no evidence of your own beyond the fact that apparently you can’t imagine it! Not sure a mirror could help in your case. lol.

Yes possibly, I’m not sure. His statement: “… the impression grows that we’re a long way from knowing (perhaps I just mean a long way from proving?) all there is to know in the suite of measurements available to us.” - This implies to me a variation on the “science doesn’t know everything” fallacy. I parsed his assertion effectively as: “I hear a difference between two specific DACs which have measurable differences way below audibility (with the exception of voltage output levels), it therefore seems clear DACs aren’t a solved technology and this could be rationally explained by the fact that we don’t know everything about measurements.” It’s certainly possible this interpretation is incorrect, hence why “I’m not sure”.

G

I'm inclined to agree with you upon reading the whole post. It wasn't apparent in just the quote, so that's my mistake.

 

[bigshot]

I don't disagree with him as far as audible differences go, the V60 had a negative qualitative difference from the V50 due to a poor software implementation of the filter, and there seems to be a tuning decision by B&O and Meridian to attenuate the 4k to 5k response deliberately whereas the direct PCM signal from the V60 has noticably elevated response there in comparison.

Are there controlled listening tests that show audible differences? Before I speculate on what causes audible differences, I’d like to see evidence there is an audible difference. My second question is going to be, which one sounds different than most DACs in a blind test? Are they both performing out of spec, or is just one of them funky?

 

[FunkyBassMan]

with no evidence of your own

That "science doesn't know everything" is true hardly requires evidence, at least everywhere but here.

 

[AussieMick]

Did anyone listen to the podcasts I posted? All of them have things to say that contradict something said here in the name of science. People with EE degrees working in the field.

 

[ScrofulousBinturong]

I think a lot of equipment manufacturers figure that if their product measures a little better than the competition, that is a selling point. It * is * better, regardless if that improvement makes any difference to human ears. If their customers want to write glowing testimonials claiming they hear night and day differences, it isn’t their job to argue with happy customers. So they pass along the glowing, baseless reviews without comment. They don’t have to outright lie if their customers do the lying for them. They just point to the small, imperceptible improvement in specs and let people make of that what they will.

It isn’t evil to just be an advocate for your product, right? You’re not responsible for claims made by customers, right?

If products measure differently, I have more sympathy for the technical people participating in marketing them, even if the difference isn't audible.

Ethernet and 1-meter IEM cables cannot measure differently.

You didn’t need to say it, you demonstrated it.

What “things”, presumably not online encyclopaedias? lol.

G

Hey can we not do this and stay on topic please

Guys, since y'all can't behave I'm asking the mods to close this thread.