Objective science, engineering, and business
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Feb 18, 2024 at 4:17 PM Post #16 of 53
But what if it’s a fact that high end home audio marketing includes deliberately false and misleading information, and relies on baseless testimonials to get around truth in advertising rules?

The fact is that jitter is not audible, digital audio doesn’t involve “stairsteps”, properly implemented, amps, DACs and cables should all sound the same, and any sound contained in data rates above 16/44.1 exist beyond the range of human hearing… yet false information on these and other subjects exist in threads all over head-fi and it’s cited in the sales literature of many manufacturers.

If these aren’t deliberate attempts to deceive, then high end audio manufacturers are woefully ignorant of how their own products work, and have never been corrected by someone who knows better. Not terribly likely.
But the problem with the cynicism is that it results in a closed door to anything novel. Being so certain of what’s factual and what isn’t can produce intellectual inertia. Ask Copernicus, right?
The problem we face if we want that proof is that IP concerns will prevent true advancements from being proven with publishing and peer review. So where does that lead us?
I’m a hobbyist who’s very interested in technical explanations of how things work. At the same time, if something appears that I’m fascinated by I’d like to try it even in the absence of proof. Take DACs for example; I clearly and repeatably hear the difference between a Chord Mojo2 and a Denafrips Ares 2. Easily discernible. Then also with products within each company’s range (Ares vs Terminator, Mojo2 vs TT2). To me it seems clear that DACs aren’t a solved technology in terms of everyone can build one that’s essentially audibly transparent.
So, I keep looking for explanation and keep an open mind.
The more I learn (through forums like this) the more the impression grows that we’re a long way from knowing (perhaps I just mean a long way from proving?) all there is to know in the suite of measurements available to us. I’d like to see evidence. Maybe one day more will happen in that field.
 
Feb 18, 2024 at 6:37 PM Post #17 of 53
My quandary is this: I have a hard time imagining that the thousands of engineers and materials science people working on those are all entirely greedy, cynical marketers just making luxury items that make no difference to take advantage of dumb people.
They’re not. You seem to be under the misapprehension that the engineers are somehow in charge and/or have the autonomy to “engineer” whatever they want. That might be true in a relatively few cases but generally engineers are just employees, engineering whatever it is that their employers instruct them to engineer. In many/most cases, particularly in the last 25 years or so, the people who decide what the engineers should engineer are the marketers/marketing departments. So, the engineers are generally not “entirely greedy, cynical marketers”, they’re just engineering what they’re employed to engineer, it’s the entirely greedy, cynical marketers who are!

Additionally, there is more than just the audiophile community to consider. There’s also the pro-audio world, a lot of DACs/ADCs, amps, speakers, etc., are engineered for this community as well. While there certainly are examples of snake oil products in the pro-audio world, there’s a great deal fewer, for example there are no audiophile cables (Ethernet, other digital or analogue), ultra expensive amps or players/streamers, etc. There are some extremely expensive ADCs/DACs but modern pro ADCs//DACs are highly complex feature packed modular units that provide hundreds of input/output channels and a routing matrix with thousands of channels. So, extremely few of the engineers in this market are the cynical marketing types and of course there’s also the thousands of software engineers working for the DAW and plugin manufacturers who are also rarely in that group.

I’m not sure that there are many, if any, “materials science people”, assuming you mean actual scientists, working in the audiophile field, despite marketing claims/implications to the contrary.

G
 
Feb 18, 2024 at 7:18 PM Post #18 of 53
AussieMick

Power supply and output stage are fairly simple to accomplish clean. That is technology that’s had a century or so to refine.

The differences you hear between DACs likely has more to do with amping the headphones you’re using than the DAC itself.
 
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Feb 18, 2024 at 7:36 PM Post #19 of 53
There’s a lot of cynicism above. Any accusation of snake oil, or assumption that these people are crooked, really doesn’t add up in a forum asking for facts?
You might have forgotten the question.
So what gives? What motivates engineers to work on parts of the signal chain that cannot make a difference?
We're talking about the mens rea here, which is not fact, but educated speculation. The key premise here is that humans choose actions with a greater beneficial incentive to them and/or their in-group, and making big profit margins is about as straightforward an incentive imaginable. People choose to maximize their own gain even when significant risk is involved (Bernie-Madoff, Enron, theranos, Celsius, countless others), this market is way easier to bamboozle and get away scot free.

My guess is you are not involved in the humanities end of science if you can still hold a general opinion like deference to authority. I'll freely admit I have a raging case of oppositional defiance and an iconoclastic tendency, but the intellectual dishonesty on display even a decade and a half ago was plainly apparent.

After what happened to Dr. Fryer in 2016 and Dr. Malone and Dr. McCullough, I'm not optimistic about STEM's immunity from this contagion either.
 
Feb 19, 2024 at 2:57 AM Post #20 of 53
What motivates engineers to work on parts of the signal chain that cannot make a difference?

Because these tens of thousands of engineers, all credentialed, proven experts in the science of audio, believe that they do not know everything there is to know about audio, that the science of audio did not come to a stop in the 70s, and that there may be discoveries and improvements to be made.
 
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Feb 19, 2024 at 3:18 AM Post #21 of 53
... trusting experts in the field might be a place to start. The people who design these things day in, day out. These are some experienced people who, given the quality of the products they produce, probably are worth listening to more than someone who does not have their degree of experience or expertise.
Perfectly said.
 
Feb 19, 2024 at 3:30 AM Post #22 of 53
I hate to burst bubbles, but when the package says "new and improved" on the front, it rarely is new nor is it improved. Sorry to let you down like that!
 
Feb 19, 2024 at 5:08 AM Post #24 of 53
Because these tens of thousands of engineers, all credentialed, proven experts in the science of audio, believe that they do not know everything there is to know about audio, that the science of audio did not come to a stop in the 70s, and that there may be discoveries and improvements to be made.
We know entirely how Ethernet works, yet some manufacturers are peddling Ethernet cables that purportedly improve trebles or some other cockamamie claim that is laughable on its face. There is no mystery, nothing to be discovered about TCP.

There are reams of measurements and blind tests etc showing that analog cables under, say, 2m all sound the same. It's physics. And yet some people here and elsewhere are writing reviews of $2500 IEM cables that dramatically broaden the soundstage and other absurd claims.

Some manufacturers sell power cables for tens of thousands of dollars for 2 meters of wire.

And yet there are still technical people designing and manufacturing those cables.

I want to know what motivates those technical people. Is it greed? Is it the lack of ethical jobs? I don't think I could work on something I know can't be true and claim it is true to sell it to Keith, DDS in Marina Del Rey.

There's plenty of science and discovery to be done in audio. Materials and shapes and driver types etc are constantly being studied and experimented with. That's great. The results are measurable and objective to a large extent. So I'm not against r&d, far from it.
 
Feb 19, 2024 at 5:37 AM Post #26 of 53
We know entirely how Ethernet works, yet some manufacturers are peddling Ethernet cables that purportedly improve trebles or some other cockamamie claim that is laughable on its face. There is no mystery, nothing to be discovered about TCP.

There are reams of measurements and blind tests etc showing that analog cables under, say, 2m all sound the same. It's physics. And yet some people here and elsewhere are writing reviews of $2500 IEM cables that dramatically broaden the soundstage and other absurd claims.

Some manufacturers sell power cables for tens of thousands of dollars for 2 meters of wire.

And yet there are still technical people designing and manufacturing those cables.

I want to know what motivates those technical people. Is it greed? Is it the lack of ethical jobs? I don't think I could work on something I know can't be true and claim it is true to sell it to Keith, DDS in Marina Del Rey.

There's plenty of science and discovery to be done in audio. Materials and shapes and driver types etc are constantly being studied and experimented with. That's great. The results are measurable and objective to a large extent. So I'm not against r&d, far from it.
Since the dawn of time, to put food on the table for their families, people have tried to sell things and on occasion stretched the truth (or needed to work for such people).

If it genuinely confuses you as to why the world is not 100% pristinely ethical, perhaps ask in a psychology forum?
 
Feb 19, 2024 at 6:07 AM Post #27 of 53
If someone is very affluent and has $100k worth of visual/audio gear in their house they're not going to spend $10 for a cable at Walmart. Even if they admit to not hearing a difference, for them it's aesthetics.
 
Feb 19, 2024 at 6:13 AM Post #28 of 53
If someone is very affluent and has $100k worth of visual/audio gear in their house they're not going to spend $10 for a cable at Walmart. Even if they admit to not hearing a difference, for them it's aesthetics.
That's not strictly true. Affluence is only an effect of a cause, the underlying cause is the mentality and circumstance. If this individual got into wealth through hard work and sound analysis, they might have spent that money on equipment with the highest rate of variance in quality, transducers for instance, instead of components that don't have as much of an effect. Someone who lucked out in the lottery might be more cavalier about that money because they don't have as much of an investment in the process of earning that money.
 
Feb 19, 2024 at 7:31 AM Post #29 of 53
That's not strictly true. Affluence is only an effect of a cause, the underlying cause is the mentality and circumstance. If this individual got into wealth through hard work and sound analysis, they might have spent that money on equipment with the highest rate of variance in quality, transducers for instance, instead of components that don't have as much of an effect. Someone who lucked out in the lottery might be more cavalier about that money because they don't have as much of an investment in the process of earning that money.
Agreed. I now have far more money than I could ever need, but I did start quite poor. However, I worked hard and have always been very careful with money, only spending on things that bring real value, allowing me to invest the rest. I remain that way even now.
 
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Feb 19, 2024 at 7:33 AM Post #30 of 53
Being so certain of what’s factual and what isn’t can produce intellectual inertia. Ask Copernicus, right?
Why, what’s the parallel, where’s the analogy with Copernicus? There wasn’t factual certainty in Copernicus’ day, there was Ptolemy’s geocentric model for which there was no proof, it just happened to be a more believable explanation than any other known model at the time and was therefore widely accepted in Europe even though it was known to have serious problems; not only did it predict the position of the planets relatively inaccurately but it required them to stop and change direction, for which there was no explanation. There were additional problems besides, for which hypotheses were devised but these hypotheses didn’t even have any reliable supporting evidence, forget actual proof, they’d just been invented to make the hypothesis (loosely) fit the observations. So, those “so certain” at the time, was due to their ignorance of competing hypotheses and a “certainty” based on faith, NOT certainty based on facts! Copernicus was not initially widely believed because he did not have any proof either, it was not until Galileo‘s invention of the telescope and far more accurate observations that Copernicus’ hypothesis gained ground and eventually replaced geocentrism with further supporting evidence from Kepler, Newton and others. Additionally, the certainty in the geocentric model obviously did not “produce intellectual inertia”, if it had then we would still believe in the geocentric model and you would never have heard of Copernicus, Galileo or Kepler.

However, none of this is relevant because it’s not analogous with digital audio anyway. Digital audio is NOT a hypothesis created to explain a set of observations of nature, the solar system or the universe. There is no digital audio in nature and therefore, there were obviously couldn’t be any observations of it. This makes digital audio completely different to the heliocentric model, the theory of evolution, quantum mechanics or relativity for example, which are all theories to explain our observations of the universe. Digital audio is a completely man-made phenomena. Additionally, it was a published theory nearly a century ago but that ended in 1948 when Shannon published the proof of Nyquist’s 1927 theory. So this also makes it significantly different to the theory of evolution, quantum mechanics, etc, which have not been categorically proven (although the supporting evidence maybe overwhelming).
The problem we face if we want that proof is that IP concerns will prevent true advancements from being proven with publishing and peer review. So where does that lead us?
But there is proof, we’ve had it since 1948. So if “we want that proof” there is no problem, we just have to go and read Shannon’s 1948 paper “A Mathematical Theory of Communication”. However, there can be no “true advancements”, it’s indisputably proven, just like there can be and is not any “true advancements” in “1+1=2” for example. 1+1=2 was invented thousands of years ago, it’s amongst our earliest science, there have never been any true advancements of it, 1+1 still equals 2 today. Of course the field of mathematics has advanced enormously but 1+1=2 itself has never changed/advanced.

However, this is only true of the science of digital audio, it is not necessarily true of the technology that tries to implement that science, nor of other areas of science, such as psychoacoustics. However, I’m not sure how IP concerns will prevent true advancements from being proven with publishing peer reviewed papers. “IP concerns” just stops you bringing products to market which infringe that IP, it doesn’t preclude research into that IP.
Take DACs for example; I clearly and repeatably hear the difference between a Chord Mojo2 and a Denafrips Ares 2. Easily discernible. Then also with products within each company’s range (Ares vs Terminator, Mojo2 vs TT2).
Without looking them up, there probably is an audible difference between at least some of those models, if not all of them. They probably have different output voltage levels which are significant enough to be audible, it’s therefore not surprising that you may clearly and repeatably hear differences between them.
To me it seems clear that DACs aren’t a solved technology in terms of everyone can build one that’s essentially audibly transparent.
So, I keep looking for explanation and keep an open mind.
Sure, that will seem clear to you (or anyone else) if you don’t precisely volume match the DACs you listed! There are a few exceptions to the rule, those few DACs which deliberately do not apply the proven science (filterless NOS DACs for example) or those few which deliberately avoid “audibly transparent”, by adding audible amounts of distortion through the use of an overdriven Tube for example. However, even very cheap consumer DACs from more than 25 years ago were typically audibly transparent, it was a solved technology in the 1990’s and some DACs managed it in the late 1980’s! So how could it not be a solved technology in current and significantly more expensive DACs?

Audiophile marketing relies on you to keep an open mind, for example to keep an open mind that 1+1 might not always equal 2, and actively tries to keep your mind open through the use of fallacies (science doesn’t know everything, incorrect analogies, etc.). Obviously that tactic is effective, because you have used those same fallacies above!
The more I learn (through forums like this) the more the impression grows that we’re a long way from knowing (perhaps I just mean a long way from proving?) all there is to know in the suite of measurements available to us. I’d like to see evidence. Maybe one day more will happen in that field.
Exactly, because Head-Fi and forums like it are driven by audiophile marketing and as I just mentioned, it is designed to give you a growing impression that we don’t know everything (and therefore we don’t know enough), that nothing has been proved and therefore you should keep an open mind about any nonsense marketing claim they care to make-up!

The nature of sound (it being sound waves traveling through a medium) was proposed around 500 years ago and with all the advancements in science since then, there’s no reliable evidence that it’s anything other than just that variation in air pressure (which of course we can measure). This does not absolutely prove there isn’t something else that we don’t know about, that we can’t measure and that we’ve never even had any hint of, it just makes it extremely unlikely. However, this is completely irrelevant! Let’s say hypothetically that there is something out there we don’t know about, it still doesn’t make any difference because digital audio only responds to one thing, voltage variations over time (which analogously represent the air pressure variations of sound waves). So if there is something else, it cannot be recorded with digital audio and therefore you obviously could not hear it when reproducing digital audio recordings. Of course though, this only pertains to the audio/sound itself, not to how we perceive it and we currently have no objective measurement for the entirely of perception.

G
 
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