[sphinxvc]

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Something I want to mention: My father wrote a book about what science is, which I've linked to in my signature. You can read it for free on Google Books. If you want to understand how science works, it's a good read. 

Cool book.  I'll have to add it to my list.

 

[frenchbat]

It goes both ways. Sometimes a single mention of blind test, not as the only way to make a test, but as a complementary way, puts people on the path to war. Just because you know, we are not agreeing with them, or we try to introduce nuances that we think could be worth discussing.
 
The way I see it (not that anyone care but well ...), argueing can go endlessly if based solely on subjective hearing. Actually I haven't seen worse fights here than the ones involving people not agreeing on a sound sig. It's happened before, and will keep happening. So what should we do ? Just let the forum carry on ? The hammer example quoted earlier is the best illustration of what happens, and why it will never change. In one sentence : how to discuss, if there are no facts to discuss in the first place ?

 
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The point about blind testing discussion, by the way, has nothing to do with blind testing as such, it has to do with people being unable to do other than trash a thread when it is discussed and people have been using it as an argument to attack others. If people are afraid to post because they worry about being attacked for their opinions, then something is very wrong with the forums. I wasn't singling out anyone in my previous post by the way, I just wanted to put that thought out there.

 

 

[morks]

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Seriously, who cares. If you like the O2 and or TOTL, it's your business and no one elses. Why do people feel such a compelling need to justify their purchases and put down each others with different experiences or views? 

I think it's a struggle for superiority of opinion that's justified imho, as a reaction to the status quo -- the audio-gear industry we have today became what it is through the culture and community of buyers that have surrounded it for decades: a playground of subjectivists with too much money to burn on luxurious products. It's a dangerous mono-culture that caters just to itself, with a very high financial barrier to entry. There is very little balance or critical attitude, especially not here at head-fi. Companies aren't forced to objectively prove that their products actually perform better than a product for a tenth its' price (TOTL vs. O2) or even perform at all (cables, ...). There is no quality control. Outsiders look at this with some bewilderment and carry on to buy cheap Logitech or Bose speakers, Skullcandys and Beats. A corollary is that producers of music, who must cater to the biggest chunk of customers to make money, will have to target cheap, crappy equipment and make their music sound good there (low dynamics, ...). Perfectly good equipment is available at reasonable prices[1], but these aren't the center of attention in the audio gear community.
 
If the "Objectivists" could gain more traction, it could help bring more sanity and quality to the audio industry. Companies would be forced to show that their products actually perform well. This will root out companies that make expensive garbage or stuff that barely performs better that a product for a tenth of its' price. HiFi would be more accessible to the masses, maybe music production quality could increase, everyone would benefit. Compare to what the efficiency logos have done to computer PSUs. Measurements need to be at the center of attention.
 
[1]: The entry level speakers of Adam Audio, Nubert (Germany), the "big 3" headphones from AKG, Sennheiser and Beyerdynamic, Behringer gear isn't actually half bad, etc.

 

[lejaz]

Well said. It was very frustrating as a relative newbie to this hobby, when I read that the k70X won't live up to its potential unless you spend upwards of $1000 on a Phonitor or whatever amp....and maybe a couple hundred on a cable upgrade as well. It was a breath of fresh air to come across the posts of V'  and other folks who are challenging all the hype that goes on here on head-fi and in magazines that cater to the audiophile. I think it's likely the high end audiophiles who have been making the vast majority of the exaggerated claims, not the 'objectivists'. Anyway it's good that there's finally some balance here.
 
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I think it's a struggle for superiority of opinion that's justified imho, as a reaction to the status quo -- the audio-gear industry we have today became what it is through the culture and community of buyers that have surrounded it for decades: a playground of subjectivists with too much money to burn on luxurious products. It's a dangerous mono-culture that caters just to itself, with a very high financial barrier to entry. There is very little balance or critical attitude, especially not here at head-fi. Companies aren't forced to objectively prove that their products actually perform better than a product for a tenth its' price (TOTL vs. O2) or even perform at all (cables, ...). Outsiders look at this with some bewilderment and carry on to buy cheap Logitech or Bose speakers, Skullcandys and Beats. A corollary is that producers of music, who must cater to the biggest chunk of customers to make money, will have to target cheap, crappy equipment and make their music sound good there (low dynamics, ...). Perfectly good equipment is available at reasonable prices[1], but these aren't the center of attention in the audio gear community.
 
If the "Objectivists" could gain more traction, it could help bring more sanity and quality to the audio industry. Companies would be forced to show that their products actually perform well. This will root out companies that make expensive garbage or stuff that barely performs better that a product for a tenth of its' price. HiFi would be more accessible to the masses, maybe music production quality could increase, everyone would benefit. Compare to what the efficiency logos have done to computer PSUs. Measurements need to be at the center of attention.
 
[1]: The entry level speakers of Adam Audio, Nubert (Germany), the "big 3" headphones from AKG, Sennheiser and Beyerdynamic, Behringer gear isn't actually half bad, etc.

 

 

[skamp]

Anyway it's good that there's finally some balance here.

Maybe we should call him Anakin Skywalker instead, he was supposed to bring balance to The Force…

 

[lejaz]

Well, he'll surely need superhuman powers to overcome all the hype.
 
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Maybe we should call him Anakin Skywalker instead, he was supposed to bring balance to The Force…

 

 

[maverickronin]

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So this thread started in High-End Audio, was moved to Fullsize Amps and now its in Sound Science. Classic. 

Yup.  Can't go rocking the boat.  The OP just wanted some honest impressions
 
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got moved from high end, because high end people don't like the o2 because of it's affordability. Moved from amps to sound science because of the mention of "blind testing".. anything like that is moved here, to die.

O2 isn't expensive enough.  Moved.  Someone mentioned basic experimental controls.  Moved.
 
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Right, ODA is supposed to be the same core design as far as we know, implying the same op amps and parts for the main section I think.  A different layout could possibly improve performance some though, even aside from the power supply change.
 
I'm not sure if anybody other than me remembers, but the first O2 design posted had no gain switch and furthermore had worse performance, violating even his -80 dB guideline for one nonlinearity in one 15 ohms test.  Subsequent PCB revisions improved performance over that.  Anybody else remember that, even that just the O2 had no gain switch?

I remember.  I was the first one to suggest a gain switch.  At least publicly in the comments.
 
He doesn't have any of the graphs for the older revisions up any more but the PCB went through a few revisions and each one had progressively better performance.
 
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So we will be paying for a more expensive power supply and a nicer case for no appreciable sonic improvement ?  I'm all for a nicer case, but there has to be some point to the more expensive power supply. 

You're not really paying any more for the power supply.  Its just that without the restrictions of the batteries, auto shut off circuit, and small size he can make a better one for the same price or cheaper.  The opamps have high enough PSRR that you'd only ever notice with a scope, but why not if it doesn't cost any more?  The desktop version was only ever supposed to be about form factor, ergonomics, and maybe a more flexible gain structure.
 

 

[chrislangley4253]

The ODAC includes a DAC, the O2 is just an amp.

The odac is a dac.. the o2 is a transportable amp, which can be retrofitted with the dac. The ODA is a desktop amp that can also be retrofitted with the odac.

Well, I repost my earlier comment that I didn't hear a difference between a Dark Star even with sighted listening, I shouldn't be able to overcome bias (at least not theoretically), so it is a strange result

You could have been biased the other way..

:rolleyes:

I don't think I shot your impressions down.. I kind of shot your comment about my thread being in the wrong spot, but I totally enjoyed your subjective comparison.

Yup.  Can't go rocking the boat.  The OP just wanted some honest impressions

O2 is't expensive enough.  Moved.  Someone mentioned basic experimental controls.  Moved.

You're not really paying any more for the power supply.  Its just that without the restrictions of the batteries, auto shut off circuit, and small size he can make a better one for the same price or cheaper.  The opamps have high enough PSRR that you'd only ever notice with a scope, but why not if it doesn't cost any more?  The desktop version was only ever supposed to be about form factor, ergonomics, and maybe a more flexible gain structure.

Hit the nail on the head maverick.

 

[Anaxilus]

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You cannot know his motives. But is that relevant to the debate ? His articles regarding subjective vs. objective and sighted vs. blind testing make rational arguments backed up by many references and links, including AES papers. Measurements can be verified by anyone with comparable equipment, or at least roughly checked for blatant errors using less advanced gear. It is possible to argue, verify, or refute the claims made without knowing anything about the person behind them.
 

It is to those who keep making the claim!  Not all the arguments in these forums are centered around your perceptions and agenda btw.  You have a very selective and narrow view always lacking in context which is why I choose not to engage in your commentary.  I'd appreciate it if you just put me on ignore.  Stop trying to shift every point and comment into your preferred box when they are directed at other people w/ different arguments and contexts.
 
Once again, you only concern yourself w/ claims made by the 'other side'.  We'll just let the ones you agree with slide. 
 

 

[stv014]

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You have a very selective and narrow view always lacking in context which is why I choose not to engage in your commentary.

 
Well, I guess resorting to personal attacks indicates the lack of any good arguments.

 
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I'd appreciate it if you just put me on ignore.

Done.
 

 

[mikeaj]

There's some merit to questioning the source of any information, including V, sure.  That means you should be at least as suspicious of anybody trying to sell you anything, right?  The whole audio industry (also the journalists, websites), which benefits from the status quo?  People who think they can transcend their humanity and perceptual biases?  How about audiophiles, whose pride and dignity are on the line?  The vast majority of people online, who are not experts in the field, including me?
 
But the point stands that the claims being made can be addressed without even considering the source.  

 

[estreeter]

Guys, feel free to shoot any of this down, but I'm going to break this rambling post up for easier digestion (and possible ridicule):
 
1. I spent a few hours on the weekend researching powered speakers as an alternative to the joys of trying to match amp A to speakers B,C or D - virtually everything one reads from the converted is compelling. Looking at speakers from Genelec, Adam and Mackie, the prices looked encouraging until I realised that the quoted prices were per speaker. Of course, from a pro audio or HT POV, that makes sense. It also makes sense that the wood veneer cabinets of traditional home audio speakers has been replaced by something considerably more durable but, IMO, less attractive, at least at the entry level. You end up with something on your desk that looks like it may have come from Sony or another volume operation out of China. Not being a snob here - just giving my initial impression.
 
2. I can ignore most of the high-end brands, but Meridian just has a knack for making almost anything look absolutely gorgeous - the drool factor. Outrageous markups ? Sure. Poor VFM ? Probably. Do I want some of that action ? You betcha. I dont drive a BMW or live in a loft apartment, but I want something with the Meridian badge on it - and they know it. I'd be much better off with those 'homely' speakers from Genelec than Meridian's overpriced marvels, but that doesnt stop the drool factor. Sadly, their pricing does stop said drool halfway to the floor. 
 
http://www.meridian-audio.info/public/retail_pricesheet_(usa)0111%5B3564%5D.pdf
 
3. Anyone who needs proof that the high-end in headphones is largely about the new-and-novel need only ask themselves this - when was the last thread about the PS1K / GS1K in High End Audio ? Old news, right ? Who wants to talk about 4-year old headphones when there is so much new and sexy product out there - I get that - but contrast that with people who keep the same  speakers for years, if not decades ....
 
Its no accident that nwavguy felt the need to move to a desktop version of the O2 with nicer casework, even if it does absolutely nothing for the sonic ability of what's inside. 
 
 
 
 

 

[Currawong]

 

Spoiler: Off-topic%20discussion%20inside.

 

 
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 how to discuss, if there are no facts to discuss in the first place ?

Indeed. However, there is also the relevance of facts to a discussion as well. A very good example is the common statement that digital "is just ones and zeros" which, on one level is true, but on another is not and ignores a great deal of important, valid information about electronic signal transmission.  It's human nature to want to have answers and "truth" simplified and not make the effort to expand one's understanding, which doesn't work well with audio, which is too complicated. A person has to go in the other extreme and just "follow one's ears" otherwise.

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Well, he'll surely need superhuman powers to overcome all the hype.

He is responsible for his own degree of dishonesty and hype now, which destroyed any good his designs might do.

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3. Anyone who needs proof that the high-end in headphones is largely about the new-and-novel need only ask themselves this - when was the last thread about the PS1K / GS1K in High End Audio ? Old news, right ? Who wants to talk about 4-year old headphones when there is so much new and sexy product out there - I get that - but contrast that with people who keep the same  speakers for years, if not decades ....

 
It's the same in any industry. However, having been here before the HD-800s, Hifiman and Audeze when the ED9s were considered TOTL, I can say that there has definitely been an improvement in headphone quality, with the smaller manufacturers seriously challenging the bigger ones, both subjectively and measurably. If anything, claims that various new headphones were only FOTM were written....many months ago. Much of the discussion recently has been about what is wrong with the headphones, almost more so than what is right. Despite (ahem!) claims about sponsors and censorship, both Sennheiser and Audeze have been absolutely hammered in the forums over the past year. The discussion about the LCD-3s for the last 20 or so pages, if not many more before that, have been about whether it is safe to buy a pair.
 

 

 

[Citan]

He is responsible for his own degree of dishonesty and hype now, which destroyed any good his designs might do.
 
LULZ

 

[n3rdling]

I'd love to see an O2HV, would definitely be interested in building one.