Now that we've seen China making multi-driver IEM's that compete with the big boys why are others still charging so much? Whose buying?
Apr 14, 2019 at 10:43 AM Post #31 of 42
I guess that's partially my point. Not saying ALL high-end expensive IEM's aren't worth it...certainly not saying ALL Chi-fi IEM's are worth it. Just that, in my experience, there's certainly NOTHING that equates to "more money = more/better sound". Again, I'm not an idiot, and I know that my experiences with my Shockwave 3 are true. For a 5-driver hybrid Chi-fi IEM they rival or surpass IEM's by MUCH large companies and cost MUCH less than other IEM's.

So yeah, I wouldn't claim that the CCA C16 is the same as the VE8 but is the VE8 really worth it's $2,500 price tag vs. ~$80? Nah, I've never heard the VE8 but can unequivocally say it isn't. Marketing, employee pay, elitism, prestige, etc make it worth that much, not the actual sound and hardware.

Diminshing returns man. No $2500 IEM is worth exactly 10 times a $250 IEM, it might be a 10-20% improvement at best.

Also, I think the answer to your thread question is that people are not rational consumers. If we were, we would all be driving Toyota Prius's, which are far more economical and reliable than any Ferrari. I am assuming that the same concept applies to IEMs, and people are willing to pay more for a familiar brand name or image than a noob in the industry, even if they made IEMs that sound like gold dripping from an angels' *****. The majority of people buy with their hearts, not their minds.

I guess if we were rational we wouldn't spend more than $5 on IEMs either??
 
Apr 14, 2019 at 5:36 PM Post #32 of 42
This sums it up precisely.
I come from watch collecting and there are countless threads exactly like this and it's the same in any collectable, hobbyist situation.
Why should I buy a Rolex when I can buy brand X,Y or Z which seems just as well made for the same purpose?
 
Apr 15, 2019 at 1:24 AM Post #33 of 42
I guess if we were rational we wouldn't spend more than $5 on IEMs either??

Eh I wouldn't go THAT low but I think you're right about diminishing returns. It seems like after that $3-400 it's a wish-wash as to whether something is worth it or not.

Why should I buy a Rolex when I can buy brand X,Y or Z which seems just as well made for the same purpose?

After getting my Samsung Gear S3 mechanical watches matter not to me now LOL...functionality over form any day at this point.
 
Apr 18, 2019 at 9:43 PM Post #34 of 42
I'm sure no one will see this or care but I actually got a response back from VE, actually one of the co-founders, when I emailed asking if they'd be interested in a comparison/showdown of the CCA C16 vs their VE8. Not to paraphrase or mislead here's the email I received in response:

Hi Scott,
my name is Marcel Schoenen and I am one of the owners of Vision Ears. Thank you for your e-mail and giving us the chance to do a statement on the things your are quoting about our products - although you did not listen to the VE 8 before, right?
I read all the comments in your thread in the meantime and I really must say that your opinion about products of higher price is already very set and I highly doubt providing you with a Demo-unit would lead to an objective valuable result. But you are highly welcome to visit one of our dealers worldwide and compare your favorite earphone with one of ours.
I would like to take the chance to give you some insight to our products calculation and what generally is important for a high class product. So here are some points you should consider when you are doing calculation on our products:
  1. Your 8 driver earphones cost approx 80 EUR. So these are 16 drivers in total - I have honestly no idea how this can work out to make profit. This is only a fraction of the price I would pay for 16 drivers from my supplier and we already get better prices because we´re one of the biggest In-Ear manufacturers in Germany. Maybe they use copies of the original drivers which are less expensive, I really don´t know.
  2. Our 8 driver system is custom made. It´s not only more time consuming building an individual shell - doing each unit exactly like it was designed by the customer is not possible to do in mass production because each earphone is unique and requires a lot more attention during production.
  3. We have dealers with Demo units. This service and also promoting a product does cost money and need to be included in the products price as well. Your benefit is to have heard of the product due to our promotion activities and you are able to listen to the model before you buy it.
  4. We have dealers who need to earn money when selling our products. Margin needs to be higher as with universal products because an individual product needs more consulting and sometimes after sales services.
  5. We are known to do premium quality products and this quality can only be achieved when you put a lot of effort into training your workers and doing reliable quality control. For example, some already finished earphones don´t go to customers because of little blemishes - so we build them new. This high quality standard cost money in the end but it´s our philosophy to stay on this high level - and people appreciate it. I highly assume that many Chinese companies, that do really cheap earphones, don´t have such standards. This means if you buy five earphones they all sound different maybe. So there is no consistency in the products character and quality. So with a higher price you not only pay for high quality but also for a reliable product due to high quality standards.
  6. In many countries of the world wages are much higher than in China, which is in my opinion the main factor for huge price differences. Additional in Germany we have to pay 45 % taxes in total of all sales volume. Which is extraordinary high compared to other countries. I know with this point there is no direct benefit for you as a customer but on the other hand this is the reality we have to cope with, so we do our best... But frankly speaking what is the consequence of your proclamation? If everybody thinks like this, everybody would only buy products from low wage countries and passionate companies like ours have no right to survive? This is a world I don´t want to live in!
So, frankly speaking, I also see the process of some manufacturers exploring the boundaries of what is the most expensive In-Ear worldwide. Some are still reasonable, some are not - the customer should decide whether the product is worth the price or not. You mentioned our VE8 many times and calling it to be not worth the price because you only count the drivers inside. Besides the fact that you never heard it, you don´t know how hard we worked to get the experience and knowledge for beeing able to create this earphone. When we develop, we don´t leave the result to chance - we have a clear vision what we want to achieve and sometimes it takes very long until we are satisfied. For the VE8 we spent one year development with lots of tries and fails. We believe it´s worth the price, but again - the customer should decide if he is willing to pay for the result. So you break down all our experience, our innovative ideas and our passion to just counting 8 drivers. Hope in the meantime you understand that there are many more factors which are important.
When talking about high price products, you surely know our Erlkönig? It took us almost three years development, so many design aspects to create, to decide, so many mechanical problems to solve, physical aspects to consider, finding a perfect shape of the earphone shell, designing the exclusive wooden box with all its functions and thousands of more tiny things we created and needed to decide…! All the communication with the manufacturers of the accessories and production problems - it was a hell of a project! But we did it because we had the vision of creating a luxury earphone with so many high class features that makes it worth beeing one of the most expensive earphones worldwide. A stellar earphone with so much more than just 13 drivers per side.
We love what we do and hopefully we are able to excite our customers with our products for many many following years because they value our products - is it in shape or in sound. They value our service, our innovative ideas, we meet our customers at shows around the world and share with them our passion. And hey - some of them value the brand itself as well, because the spirit and reputation of Vision Ears is also a valuable part of the product.
Sincerly
Marcel Schoenen

Now, basically what I got from this is that while their drivers might be of better quality basically, as was already mentioned, VE8's and others like them basically cost as much due to non-sound quality properties like employee payments, source and material costs being higher, taxes being higher, etc.

So pretty much what was already discussed and the whole point of the email...the comparison...was conveniently ignored. Not surprisingly so might I add.
 
Apr 18, 2019 at 10:26 PM Post #35 of 42
I’m very curious about the CCA C16, having owned the JH16, Merlin, Miracle, SE 5 way, and currently the JH Roxanne, and one of the first reshelled Ultimate Ears TF10s.

One of the first Chinese hybrid customs, the Thousand Sound TS842, sounded fantastic when it first came out several years ago, and I wondered what else was possible. The KZ ZS6 also made me wonder what a quad driver could sound like..I think for the universal market anyways all these new multiple driver customs that are relatively inexpensive are great for the market, and I look forward to what else is to come...
 
Apr 30, 2019 at 4:00 PM Post #36 of 42
I’m very curious about the CCA C16, having owned the JH16, Merlin, Miracle, SE 5 way, and currently the JH Roxanne, and one of the first reshelled Ultimate Ears TF10s.

One of the first Chinese hybrid customs, the Thousand Sound TS842, sounded fantastic when it first came out several years ago, and I wondered what else was possible. The KZ ZS6 also made me wonder what a quad driver could sound like..I think for the universal market anyways all these new multiple driver customs that are relatively inexpensive are great for the market, and I look forward to what else is to come...
From one owner of the tf10's to another perhaps you could be helpful to me. The tf10's are my main listening devices at this time. But i have small ears and they can be uncomfortable at times and i'm getting the upgrade bug. looking at a pair of customs specifically from jh audio. Have mostly been looking at the either the jh 16v2 or loa's although not ruling out the 13v2 or roxannes. Closest jh demo location is over 6 hour drive from where i live. Do you have experience with any of these models. The lolas intrigue me but wonder if i will be missing out on clarity and detail by comparison to what i own. I listen to a lot of pink floyd, doobie brothers, smashing pumkins, radiohead, depeche mode and 80's synth rock. Any input appreciated.
 
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Apr 30, 2019 at 4:12 PM Post #37 of 42
I love the TF10 thTs why I got them made into customs. I’ve owned the JH16, and it is a god upgrade to the TF10 l, especially the freq phase versions. The Roxanne has fantastic lows, and a really huge sound and soundstage, but is a bit rolled off in the treble, which if you like TF10 treble you will be disappointed without some kind of silver upgrade cable.

One ciem you may like if you love the TF10 sound signature is the Thousand Sounds TS842. I’ve owned it and it was one of the first hybrid customs, with a dynamic driver and a balanced armature. It also runs less, say around $400-500. Let me know what you think.

https://www.head-fi.org/threads/tho...ew-appreciation-500-hybrid-custom-iem.553516/


From one owner of the tf10's to another perhaps you could be helpful to me. The tf10's are my main listening devices at this time. But i have small ears and they can be uncomfortable at times and i'm getting the upgrade bug. looking at a pair of customs specifically from jh audio. Have mostly been looking at the either the jh 16v2 or loa's although not ruling out the 13v2 or roxannes. Closest jh demo location is over 6 hour drive from where i live. Do you have experience with any of these models. The lolas intrigue me but wonder if i will be missing out on clarity and detail by comparison to what i own. I listen to a lot of pink floyd, doobie brothers, smashing pumkins, radiohead, depeche mode and 80's synth rock. Any input appreciated.
 
Apr 30, 2019 at 4:14 PM Post #38 of 42
I have yet to hear a sub-$500 IEM, regardless whether it was created by a Chinese or Western company, which competes reasonably with good (imo) kilobuck TOTL IEMs.

However, there are some bad (imo) kilobuck "TOTL" IEMs which get destroyed on the basis of being awful by virtue of its own flaws. Not going to openly name n shame em but they're out there and it's also a matter of personal taste/preference.
 
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Apr 30, 2019 at 4:46 PM Post #39 of 42
I love the TF10 thTs why I got them made into customs. I’ve owned the JH16, and it is a god upgrade to the TF10 l, especially the freq phase versions. The Roxanne has fantastic lows, and a really huge sound and soundstage, but is a bit rolled off in the treble, which if you like TF10 treble you will be disappointed without some kind of silver upgrade cable.

One ciem you may like if you love the TF10 sound signature is the Thousand Sounds TS842. I’ve owned it and it was one of the first hybrid customs, with a dynamic driver and a balanced armature. It also runs less, say around $400-500. Let me know what you think.

https://www.head-fi.org/threads/tho...ew-appreciation-500-hybrid-custom-iem.553516/
Thanks! It's a lot of money for me so want to make sure I as happy with them as my tf10's. Curious when you reshelled/custom your tf10's did it change the sound signature. Eventually I will probably custom shell then no matter what I do to extend their life and also for comfort sake.
 
Apr 30, 2019 at 5:35 PM Post #40 of 42
I reshelled my TF10 custom way back in 2011. The sound remained unchanged, it added a bit more bass and soundstage, got reshelled for $80 by Fisher Audio.

Thanks! It's a lot of money for me so want to make sure I as happy with them as my tf10's. Curious when you reshelled/custom your tf10's did it change the sound signature. Eventually I will probably custom shell then no matter what I do to extend their life and also for comfort sake.
 
Apr 30, 2019 at 5:36 PM Post #41 of 42
Just giving a lower cost option that would still be an upgrade to the TF10, and that one came to mind...

I have yet to hear a sub-$500 IEM, regardless whether it was created by a Chinese or Western company, which competes reasonably with good (imo) kilobuck TOTL IEMs.

However, there are some bad (imo) kilobuck "TOTL" IEMs which get destroyed on the basis of being awful by virtue of its own flaws. Not going to openly name n shame em but they're out there and it's also a matter of personal taste/preference.
 
Apr 30, 2019 at 6:17 PM Post #42 of 42
Just giving a lower cost option that would still be an upgrade to the TF10, and that one came to mind...
Thanks I will look into it. Appreciate all the guidance. Helps a lot. I have seen so much info and reviews that contradicts each other on the different models. And any critique doesn't mean much without am idea of how it relates to what I am using. So again thanks
 

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