[kh600rr]

This has gotten to the point of absurd now.

 

[FullCircle]

Oh please. Give me a break with the hand wringing. Measurements may not provide any insight for you but you certainly do not speak for me.

 
 
I didn't say I spoke for you. But the bottom line is, graphs are not regulated, I certainly wouldn't place my "hard earned" money down based on a graph that has no regulation or based on "specifiactions" that have no apparent regulation as well.
 
 
 

If one can predict the form of a graph from listening and vice versa, that implies correlation between sound and graphs. Many of us do this often. Correlation in this regard implies knowledge. We are learning how a graph relates to sound. Are you saying there is no correlation between graphs and sound?

Choosing a compensation standard is a problem and a fair point you make. What is your view on uncompensated graphs?

When you try to make neutral iems, like the N4 and PR, which neutral standard do you adhere to? If you do use a standard, how do you know you've matched it?

I'm not saying that whatever standard you choose is the right one, or that there is such a thing as a correct standard, only that your being forthcoming about your process and rationale would be appreciated by some folks here. This information, your reference target and graphs of how your products hit that target, is what we mean by knowledge in this instance. Without that knowledge, and without a money-back guarantee (not sure if you offer this), it becomes very difficult to rationalize an expensive purchase.

I'm only trying to clearly present the views of a growing base of audiophiles on this site, and hopefully gain a little insight into the perspective of an iem designer.

 
 
Correlation:   I'm saying without regulation, the purchaser has NO idea if the graph is accurate or false at the time of purchase.
 
Neutral:  To define "neutral" I pretty much uese what has been accepted as a "neutral" sounding product for the last 20 years as a guideline.
 
Compensation: (Money back etc etc) Noble does offer something like that for the IEMs, but of course there are limitations.
 
 
That being said, there are a lot of folks that should be compensated for purchaseing products that are sold by companies that have stated specifications or graphs that apparently are not accurate. The outrage and distrust should be directed at such companies rather than questioning my integrity.
 
This could all be resolved, if there was regulation within the industry, and frankly I welcome it. 
 

 

[shotgunshane]

Oh please. Give me a break with the hand wringing. Measurements may not provide any insight for you but you certainly do not speak for me.

I didn't say I spoke for you. But the bottom line is, graphs are not regulated, I certainly wouldn't place my "hard earned" money down based on a graph that has no regulation or based on "specifiactions" that have no apparent regulation as well.

I won't belabor the point after this post and I have no intentions of trying to change your mind but no one is talking about believing some unknown graph that just pops up in a thread. Or maybe they are but I'm not. Headroom, Innerfidelity, Purrin, Rin Choi and Golden Ears are all established and verifiable entities that perform measurements. Many have gone to great lengths to explain their setups, methods and compensation philosophies, in order to be as transparent as possible. Once you have heard any of the myriad of iems they've measured, you can establish a correlating baseline with your own subjective impressions.

Regulation is a terrible idea IMO. The last thing anyone needs is government oversight of iems and headphones. Now industry standards would be great! But that can be done without government intervention. The science of this is still growing and evolving. The guys at Harman are doing a lot of great research that may one day alter the way measurements and compensation methods are applied. We live in great times. So many opportunities to educate oneself and learn more about the hobby we love so much.

Cheers.

 

[SilverEars]

FC, how do you know if your tunes are neutral?  Is it by ear?  Can you tell us how you tune your CIEMs?  

 

[kh600rr]

We should just change the name of this thread to, " Full Circle I question your integrity, and you have no idea what your doing thread" IMO.

 

[FullCircle]

  FC, how do you know if your tunes are neutral?  Is it by ear?  Can you tell us how you tune your CIEMs?  

 
 
I've already gone over the design process.

 

[SilverEars]

   
 
I've already gone over the design process.

Looks like you use your ears.  Hopefully others can agree with your subjectivity.

 

[FullCircle]

We should just change the name of this thread to, " Full Circle I question your integrity, and you have no idea what your doing thread" IMO.

 
 
Yes agreed, the guy that designed and built one of the CIEMs on InnerFidelity's Wall of Fame, and the number one rated CIEM (K10 on Head-Fi)  has no idea what he is doing. He should just go back to being an audiologist.  (You know, one of those guys that have a doctorate degree in the science of sound)
 

 

[kh600rr]

I trusted my ears to make my choice between the Roxanne & K-10..

 

[SilverEars]

You guys are batman and robin.  I see you two together all the time.

 

[shotgunshane]

Wow, really? I must be reading a different thread. I haven't seen anyone's integrity questioned. Nor have I read accusations of not knowing what you're doing. Plenty of debate, from me, which has nothing to do with anyone personally, and a few questions on methodologies from others.

Que Sera, Sera

 

[FullCircle]

  You guys are batman and robin.  I see you two together all the time.

 
 
That would be difficult, as I reside in Thailand, and apparently kh600rr resides in Texas / Florida.  (Texas I can understand, Florida......   yuck)
 
 
 
Then again, I didn't like Florida, as it was essentlailly the same thing as Texas.  

 

[Ripvanlink]

We should just change the name of this thread to, " Full Circle I question your integrity, and you have no idea what your doing thread" IMO.

Gee, how did I wind up on Stereo Review's website. Yech!

 

[Ripvanlink]

  To be honest, I was rather unimpressed with the Roxanne. However I only tried the universal set. The sound is rather muddy. The JH 13 is better but then in someway too open, just lacking body.
I'm now looking forward to test the K10, I will be very disappointed if it's less impressive than my SE846. 
 
When comparing the JH options (JH 13, JH 16, JH Roxanne) with the Shure SE846 I would stick to the Shures for sure.

The Roxanne sounded....MUDDY? Somehow, the caliber of this CIEM is a bit above such quality as.....muddy. Are you Shure? If that were so, somehow I think news would have gotten around. And.... lacking body? I read a review here that said the exact opposite. What gives? It seems these descriptions are a bit strong to attach to the Roxanne CIEM.

 

[minhminh93]

  Hopefully FC tunes his CIEMs.  I would like to see the tunes, and if he doesn't disclose them and assures us his company's CIEMs are neutral, maybe some of would take his word for it.  If I get a chance I will try them out, but until then, I'm not dropping my hard earned cash based on his word.  Graph will help a bit.  Please show off that neutrality you speak of.

 
You can find Noble 4 measurements around the net. For PR and FR, there are subjective impressions from well-respected people around as well (not on HF).
 

I won't belabor the point after this post and I have no intentions of trying to change your mind but no one is talking about believing some unknown graph that just pops up in a thread. Or maybe they are but I'm not. Headroom, Innerfidelity, Purrin, Rin Choi and Golden Ears are all established and verifiable entities that perform measurements. Many have gone to great lengths to explain their setups, methods and compensation philosophies, in order to be as transparent as possible. Once you have heard any of the myriad of iems they've measured, you can establish a correlating baseline with your own subjective impressions.

Regulation is a terrible idea IMO. The last thing anyone needs is government oversight of iems and headphones. Now industry standards would be great! But that can be done without government intervention. The science of this is still growing and evolving. The guys at Harman are doing a lot of great research that may one day alter the way measurements and compensation methods are applied. We live in great times. So many opportunities to educate oneself and learn more about the hobby we love so much.

Cheers.

 
Great post. I think FC's regulation point is just a way to ensure consistency across all measurement. There are a lot of factors that can affect one measurement, even the way one compensate for the raw graph so if we can, let's say, compare all the measurement from a single source (assuming they know what they are doing of course, like ultrabike ER4s vs Noble 4 graph for example), it can give us a much better idea and comparison between IEMs.