[ProtegeManiac]

I understand everyones point of view but I must say I'm a little ticked off by the members who are basically trying to tell me to keep my mouth shut and my opinions to myself. Instead of saying "bury this thread" why not just stop reading it. What bothers you so much about free speech and opinions or concerns that aren't the same as yours? The theory "...don't you think Focal would be shut down if they were doing something wrong..." is simply being naive.

If it was about free speech we'd have a gag order on you and Jenny McCarthy. But no. The argument here is that if it is indeed toxic then just produce actual scientific data to prove that, not atuomatically equating radioactive substance automatically to radiation poisoning, which is like saying that whatever you typed that on is toxic and you shouldn't have typed on it, or putting two graphs side by side - autism diagnoses and vaccination rates - and declaring causation.

Again if Beryllium was THAT much of a risk for radiation poisoning government would have cracked down on Focal for even ordering the stuff, but they didn't same way the EPA is more concerned about people improperly dumping batteries than that there are batteries in your pocket for half the day in a device emitting wireless signals that might interfere with brainwaves (for which we have only hypotheses and no solid data yet).

Getting back to the topic I think the OP only got really defensive after being continually attacked for even asking the question. There is a bizarre undercurrent to this thread with a chorus of voices saying "this shouldn't be talked about, why are we talking about this, please stop talking about it", which is doubly bizarre when the topic itself which concerns a known hazardous material.

If you don't have anything to add to the thread, saying "There is nothing to talk about" as a reply also adds nothing, is needlessly hostile towards the OP, and adds absolutely nothing to the conversation.

If you feel the topic has "run it's course", or that the discussion has become annoyingly circular to you, may I humbly suggest that you simply stop opening the topic and getting yourself angry. No one is forcing you to read this topic, no one is forcing you to contribute. Most of all, bumping the thread to the top of the heap with a reply along the lines of "there is nothing more to talk about", which incidentally makes the topic highly visible and essentially refreshes it's lifespan, is the exact opposite of a reasonable thing to do.

No one is forced to listen to Jenny McCarthy either but lo and behold, some people whose immune systems won't survive vaccines yet got exposed to measles in Disneyland.

We're not forced to step out of the house and listen to specific people on Sundays either but lo and behold, I can get blown up outside of a certain type of clinic by the people who claim I should leave them alone for not forcing me to listen to their people on Sundays.

So, yeah, let's just shut up about it so we can shut up permanently about everything else when we blow up outside of a Texas clinic or some kid doesn't even get told to shut up because before his body was ready for a vaccine somebody gave him measles at Space Mountain.

 

[franz12]

This thread is fun. Keep it posted.

 

[ProtegeManiac]

I wasn't saying that boutique / high-end companies don't still aggressively market to their target customers (people who frequent specialty shops (or work at one), but that they often don't go out of their way to target the guys walking around the AV section of WallyWorld, or the folks who's biggest complaint about the direction of consumer safety is that there still aren't enough warning labels plastered on every square inch of life.

The most annoying part is how people don't read warning labels anyway, like my aunt who keeps warning me about what I eat or what meds I take, when I'm following doctor's prescriptions or the instructions that come with OTC medications like "in excess of 120mg/24hrs has no data for increased effecacy" (sic) or "take two at the initial onset of diarrhea and one at every succeeding incident, but stop at 6pills for every 24hr period" (sic). Same way she goes "that's raw!" on pink meat despite the seared exterior when she takes lettuce and herbs from her garden and eats them completely raw after I've seen stray cats walk all around the same plants. And they think I'm the crazy one for not wanting car exahust fumes to poison the planet all because I smoke (the car exhaust doesn't keep me awake at work).

Even those who would otherwise act in such a way that they are the ones who need it most. Like how I bought a less well known Taiwanese brand of carbon steel skillet and wok from a local department store (ie it's not exactly Matfer Bourgeat or Lodge from dedicated kitchen retailers) that had a giant "Seasoning Preparation and Care" label on it, and was so happy with them that I came back to get a smaller wok and a larger skillet only for the salesman to say they did not restock them because people kept getting food stuck all over. The label was literally right freaking there on the cooking surface with the damned instructions laid out in steps in plain English. Granted, I didn't really read them when I started seasoning, but that's because I already knew what to do (potato peels, salt, oil; then one final bake to cover the handles) and I was happily watching eggs slide around like hockey pucks and noodles bouncing all over.

^ Yes. Funny you should mention that.
I WAS actually considering purchasing the newest $300k Porsche GT2, but I heard that exhaust fumes are bad for you... and that SiC dust from the carbon-ceramic brakes will also give you insta-cancer if inhaled. So I was reasonably concerned that while my 9month old isn't playing unsupervised in the street, she might crawl over and start sucking on the exhaust and sniffing the brake pads. Also, I was a little concerned about the fuel economy I might see while driving it back and forth from my favorite bar.
I count find any official statement form Porsche about any of these concerns, which was still more concerning, so THEN I emailed their sales dept 30X.... and still no reply. I mean they even put this car in video games (which my 9mo old also LOVES) and no warnings or emails from them?!?!?! Well, I've reached a new level of concern and am now considering posting on the largest 911 forum in existence about this serious concern to all 911 enthusiasts and their babies ... because I'm sure that I'll find the kind of attention and validation that I seek there... I'll keep you posted on how well that goes.

Exhaust fumes are bad?! Then why do these stock brokers here keep putting hoses into their tail pipes and running them back into the cabin?! I thought it was just the vallium that killed them, apparently it was probably the fumes!

I'm not sure how you were trying to make a point, but if you think that "radiation sickness" is the potential issue from Beryllium then you don't understand the issue at all. Think Anthrax. Breath it and you die. Only in the case of Beryllium powder, there's no antibiotic that can cure it if you get to it in time. The human body has no means of expelling Beryllium. It builds up continuously, either by exposure to a lot over a short time, or very little over a long time. The results are the same: 30% morbidity and disabilities for the survivors of Berylliosis.

Whether the concern is radioactive emissions or toxicity ultimately my point is that under normal usage there is no proof that there should be concern, and even under certain unwanted conditions like maybe dropping the headphones, well, the headphones cost this much, but you don't see their automotive equivalent of people spending that much on a hobby just suing VW Gruppe for what happened when they unleashed it on the Autobahn unless there really was some kind of manufacturing defect to begin with. Or heck, as some claim was a manufacturing defect, in the case of Toyota and Mitsubishi throttles.

Again, my point really is: don't eat it, don't take it apart, don't throw it at the wall after a frustrating ranked match...

 

[up late]

If we are talking about reasonable things to do, the most reasonable thing to do once you have added all you can regarding a conversation is to stop contributing. Adding the sum total of your knowledge regarding the subject, and then throwing an immature temper tantrum when the people involved in the conversation are not satisfied with your explanations and in turn do not accept your response as the final word on the subject is the opposite of reasonable. Your self-described "sensible attempt" to explain things does not de facto imply that they must be accepted without a shadow of a doubt as the last word on the subject.

Whether he is still considering the Focal headphones is irrelevant. Either people will be interested in the topic and contribute something productive, or the conversation will fall off the radar as no more responses are added. In any case, I recommend that all further replies consider the nature of the conversation, and if they have something new to say relevant to the topic, to please contribute. Personally I find the conversation and topic interesting, as I have always wondered about the nature and safety of Be usage in audio components. If anything, the lack of knowledge around the subject as shown here speaks volumes to me, and shows that there may be something to the concerns, and I look forward to people exploring the topic more with on topic replies that actually add new information.

If you feel the topic has "run it's course", or that the discussion has become annoyingly circular to you, may I humbly suggest that you simply stop opening the topic and getting yourself angry. No one is forcing you to read this topic, no one is forcing you to contribute. Most of all, bumping the thread to the top of the heap with a reply along the lines of "there is nothing more to talk about", which incidentally makes the topic highly visible and essentially refreshes it's lifespan, is the exact opposite of a reasonable thing to do.

i agree, just as it is also reasonable to express the view that this thread has run its course when the contributions to the conversation have become repetitive and rancorous. i did not say nor imply that people should accept the "sensible attempts" that were made to respond to the op as the end of the matter, i was simply making the point that those "sensible attempts" were made. nor did i say that this discussion had "become annoyingly circular" to me. i did say, however, that the discussion had become circular and that there is nothing bizarre about people becoming impatient with it.

the op was considering upgrading to the utopia headphone but had concerns about it containing beryllium drivers. that consideration is not only relevant, it is the catalyst for this thread, along with focal not following up on the op's enquiry as it had undertaken to do. what isn't relevant to this particular thread topic is your interest in broadening the discussion to the use of beryllium in other audio components.

if you think that i've thrown an "immature temper tantrum" and that i am angry about any of this, then you've misconstrued my posts. if you are genuinely interested in contributing to the topic of discussion, then perhaps you could bring something new, substantive and hopefully relevant to it, rather than trying to inflame it.

 

[Onetwothree]

The amount of junk science in this thread would make Trump proud. The fact is that many of the products we buy and own in modern society can have negative consequences to our health if handled improperly. Firefighters today suffer from elevated health risks because a burning home spews out toxic materials that didn't exist decades ago, like plastics. We also live in a society that is still learning about the toxicity of certain materials. Remember that asbestos was widely used for decades before scientists discovered the toxicity of the material. Similarly, smoking was considered safe. So the argument that, "we've been using it for years so its safe" is Trump level false. We also know that corporations will lie to protect their business, see the smoking industry, so obviously it would be foolish to blindly accept whatever a corporation says at face value.

We also have to consider the fact that there are safe levels of exposure for toxic materials and that a safe and essential chemical to life can be toxic at high levels. I challenge you to read the MSDS sheet for table salt, it'll scare the hell out of you but if you were to completely remove salt from your body you would actually die. I live in the United States and at least the city I live, we are provided with a water quality report. Toxic materials like lead and arsenic are naturally found in water in very low quantities and there are agreed upon acceptable levels of exposure.

The toxicity of materials is very complicated and sometimes there are no good and straight forward answers. Some people are also more sensitive than others to certain chemicals.

Asbestos is actually safe as long as you don't breathe it. From what I remember, asbestos is not very toxic if you eat it, breathing it in is the real issue. If you have asbestos in your home, you are completely safe as long as it is not disturbed and spread into the air. It's like a rabid animal behind a cage, dangerous and perhaps scary but it can't hurt you.

Personally, I wouldn't worry too much about Beryllium in electronics as long as I am not in contact with it through breathing or touching. Would headphones from Focal have trace particles of Beryllium on the driver left over from the manufacturing process that can get into the air when the drivers are moving and pushing out sound? I have no idea. You would have to purchase the headphones and then swab them and run tests. I highly doubt anyone is going to do this because you would also need a large enough sample size in order to produce a respectable answer and these headphones are expensive.

There is also the legal issue of exposure if Focal were to respond. It's a bit of a lose lose scenario for Focal.

But there is absolutely nothing wrong or unreasonable with the OP wanting an answer from Focal about the safety of their product and it is disappointing to see so many people defend Focal as if it was their first born child.

 

[franz12]

The amount of junk science in this thread would make Trump proud. The fact is that many of the products we buy and own in modern society can have negative consequences to our health if handled improperly. Firefighters today suffer from elevated health risks because a burning home spews out toxic materials that didn't exist decades ago, like plastics. We also live in a society that is still learning about the toxicity of certain materials. Remember that asbestos was widely used for decades before scientists discovered the toxicity of the material. Similarly, smoking was considered safe. So the argument that, "we've been using it for years so its safe" is Trump level false. We also know that corporations will lie to protect their business, see the smoking industry, so obviously it would be foolish to blindly accept whatever a corporation says at face value.

We also have to consider the fact that there are safe levels of exposure for toxic materials and that a safe and essential chemical to life can be toxic at high levels. I challenge you to read the MSDS sheet for table salt, it'll scare the hell out of you but if you were to completely remove salt from your body you would actually die. I live in the United States and at least the city I live, we are provided with a water quality report. Toxic materials like lead and arsenic are naturally found in water in very low quantities and there are agreed upon acceptable levels of exposure.

The toxicity of materials is very complicated and sometimes there are no good and straight forward answers. Some people are also more sensitive than others to certain chemicals.

Asbestos is actually safe as long as you don't breathe it. From what I remember, asbestos is not very toxic if you eat it, breathing it in is the real issue. If you have asbestos in your home, you are completely safe as long as it is not disturbed and spread into the air. It's like a rabid animal behind a cage, dangerous and perhaps scary but it can't hurt you.

Personally, I wouldn't worry too much about Beryllium in electronics as long as I am not in contact with it through breathing or touching. Would headphones from Focal have trace particles of Beryllium on the driver left over from the manufacturing process that can get into the air when the drivers are moving and pushing out sound? I have no idea. You would have to purchase the headphones and then swab them and run tests. I highly doubt anyone is going to do this because you would also need a large enough sample size in order to produce a respectable answer and these headphones are expensive.

There is also the legal issue of exposure if Focal were to respond. It's a bit of a lose lose scenario for Focal.

But there is absolutely nothing wrong or unreasonable with the OP wanting an answer from Focal about the safety of their product and it is disappointing to see so many people defend Focal as if it was their first born child.

You got a point. Believe or not, morphine or some opioid drugs were sold at supermarkets in the U.S. a century ago (around World War 1)

 

[nvfan]

You got a point. Believe or not, morphine or some opioid drugs are sold at supermarkets in the U.S. a century ago (around World War 1)

It's not that hard to believe, it's true. Narcotics of all kinds have been legal for the majority of America's history. The war on drugs and drug prohibition started in the U.S. the same time immigration laws began to tighten in the 1920s, and it's not a coincidence that it occurred during the peak of nativism in the U.S. The majority of drug laws were passed due to resentment about immigration to the U.S. from non-traditional nations (i.e. Anglosphere) and particular drug prohibitions were picked specifically because groups of certain people used particular drugs common to their national origin. It was a way of making people self-deport and to implicitly enhance America's immigration policy to limit people of certain ethnic groups by making their stay here uncomfortable.

 

[up late]

The amount of junk science in this thread would make Trump proud. The fact is that many of the products we buy and own in modern society can have negative consequences to our health if handled improperly. Firefighters today suffer from elevated health risks because a burning home spews out toxic materials that didn't exist decades ago, like plastics. We also live in a society that is still learning about the toxicity of certain materials. Remember that asbestos was widely used for decades before scientists discovered the toxicity of the material. Similarly, smoking was considered safe. So the argument that, "we've been using it for years so its safe" is Trump level false. We also know that corporations will lie to protect their business, see the smoking industry, so obviously it would be foolish to blindly accept whatever a corporation says at face value.

We also have to consider the fact that there are safe levels of exposure for toxic materials and that a safe and essential chemical to life can be toxic at high levels. I challenge you to read the MSDS sheet for table salt, it'll scare the hell out of you but if you were to completely remove salt from your body you would actually die. I live in the United States and at least the city I live, we are provided with a water quality report. Toxic materials like lead and arsenic are naturally found in water in very low quantities and there are agreed upon acceptable levels of exposure.

The toxicity of materials is very complicated and sometimes there are no good and straight forward answers. Some people are also more sensitive than others to certain chemicals.

Asbestos is actually safe as long as you don't breathe it. From what I remember, asbestos is not very toxic if you eat it, breathing it in is the real issue. If you have asbestos in your home, you are completely safe as long as it is not disturbed and spread into the air. It's like a rabid animal behind a cage, dangerous and perhaps scary but it can't hurt you.

Personally, I wouldn't worry too much about Beryllium in electronics as long as I am not in contact with it through breathing or touching. Would headphones from Focal have trace particles of Beryllium on the driver left over from the manufacturing process that can get into the air when the drivers are moving and pushing out sound? I have no idea. You would have to purchase the headphones and then swab them and run tests. I highly doubt anyone is going to do this because you would also need a large enough sample size in order to produce a respectable answer and these headphones are expensive.

There is also the legal issue of exposure if Focal were to respond. It's a bit of a lose lose scenario for Focal.

But there is absolutely nothing wrong or unreasonable with the OP wanting an answer from Focal about the safety of their product and it is disappointing to see so many people defend Focal as if it was their first born child.

i agree that there is "nothing wrong or unreasonable with the op wanting an answer from focal about the safety of their product", and i can understand his frustration with not having received a response from focal after they undertook to provide him with one. however, having read the op's subsequent posts, i think that he has moved beyond seeking answers to making unsubstantiated assertions. i also think that it's apparent by now that he will not receive the assurances that he is seeking from focal here.

i own the utopia headphone and was aware of the risks associated with beryllium before i purchased it. based on what i read, i took the view that the magnitude of the risk was not great enough to dissuade me from purchasing it. i can't speak for the op however, or anyone else as there are so many variables that are unknown to me. i might be more of a risk taker than the op, the op may be clumsier than i am or have curious children with prying fingers etc.

i certainly don't feel compelled to defend or attack focal for bringing the utopia headphone with its beryllium drivers to market. i bought the headphone knowing what i know but not knowing everything. it's more of a punt than an educated guess i suppose, but i hope that if i treat it with the same level of care as i do with my other headphones, then the composition of the headphone drivers won't become a cause of concern for me, let alone my health. i also can't help feeling that i face more immediate and long term risks to my health from other lifestyle choices, daily exposures and family medical history than i do from donning the utopia, but that too is really nothing more than a hunch.

 

[bfreedma]

The amount of junk science in this thread would make Trump proud. The fact is that many of the products we buy and own in modern society can have negative consequences to our health if handled improperly. Firefighters today suffer from elevated health risks because a burning home spews out toxic materials that didn't exist decades ago, like plastics. We also live in a society that is still learning about the toxicity of certain materials. Remember that asbestos was widely used for decades before scientists discovered the toxicity of the material. Similarly, smoking was considered safe. So the argument that, "we've been using it for years so its safe" is Trump level false. We also know that corporations will lie to protect their business, see the smoking industry, so obviously it would be foolish to blindly accept whatever a corporation says at face value.

We also have to consider the fact that there are safe levels of exposure for toxic materials and that a safe and essential chemical to life can be toxic at high levels. I challenge you to read the MSDS sheet for table salt, it'll scare the hell out of you but if you were to completely remove salt from your body you would actually die. I live in the United States and at least the city I live, we are provided with a water quality report. Toxic materials like lead and arsenic are naturally found in water in very low quantities and there are agreed upon acceptable levels of exposure.

The toxicity of materials is very complicated and sometimes there are no good and straight forward answers. Some people are also more sensitive than others to certain chemicals.

Asbestos is actually safe as long as you don't breathe it. From what I remember, asbestos is not very toxic if you eat it, breathing it in is the real issue. If you have asbestos in your home, you are completely safe as long as it is not disturbed and spread into the air. It's like a rabid animal behind a cage, dangerous and perhaps scary but it can't hurt you.

Personally, I wouldn't worry too much about Beryllium in electronics as long as I am not in contact with it through breathing or touching. Would headphones from Focal have trace particles of Beryllium on the driver left over from the manufacturing process that can get into the air when the drivers are moving and pushing out sound? I have no idea. You would have to purchase the headphones and then swab them and run tests. I highly doubt anyone is going to do this because you would also need a large enough sample size in order to produce a respectable answer and these headphones are expensive.

There is also the legal issue of exposure if Focal were to respond. It's a bit of a lose lose scenario for Focal.

But there is absolutely nothing wrong or unreasonable with the OP wanting an answer from Focal about the safety of their product and it is disappointing to see so many people defend Focal as if it was their first born child.

You’re making a big assumption about how much at least some people posting here know (or don’t know) about the health risks posed by post manufactured use of Vapor Deposited Beryllium tweeters. While nothing in life is absolutely safe, in most homes VPD Beryllium tweeters wouldn’t make the top 100 of dangerous substances found in the average household.

Anyone worried about VPD Beryllium should immediately stop using their computers, cellphones, and most other electronics. Then get rid of almost all cleaning products including those used for personal hygiene. And as you suggest, most types of food should be abandoned as well.

Or we could use reason, knowledge, and logic to make rational decisions about product safety. We still manage to eat apples despite the relatively high levels of cyanide in apple seeds.....

 

[franz12]

You’re making a big assumption about how much at least some people posting here know (or don’t know) about the health risks posed by post manufactured use of Vapor Deposited Beryllium tweeters. While nothing in life is absolutely safe, in most homes VPD Beryllium tweeters wouldn’t make the top 100 of dangerous substances found in the average household.

Anyone worried about VPD Beryllium should immediately stop using their computers, cellphones, and most other electronics. Then get rid of almost all cleaning products including those used for personal hygiene. And as you suggest, most types of food should be abandoned as well.

Or we could use reason, knowledge, and logic to make rational decisions about product safety. We still manage to eat apples despite the relatively high levels of cyanide in apple seeds.....

This allegation is too extreme. Even if many products may use BE, the consumer's exposure to BE can vary across products (i.e., depending on sealing. or who knows closed can might be safer than open)

 

[bfreedma]

This allegation is too extreme. Even if many products may use BE, the consumer's exposure to BE can vary across products (i.e., depending on sealing. or who knows closed can might be safer than open)

Please explain what exposure you believe one would have from post manufactured Vapor Deposited Beryllium drivers.

To be clear, the substances I was referring to in electronics and cleaning products are not VPD Be. There are many materials in those products far more dangerous (though all relatively safe takin in context).

 

[franz12]

Please explain what exposure you believe one would have from post manufactured Vapor Deposited Beryllium drivers.

To be clear, the substances I was referring to in electronics and cleaning products are not VPD Be. There are many materials in those products far more dangerous (though all relatively safe takin in context).

I don't care. It is not my responsibility to prove it. Keep it posted.

 

[bfreedma]

I don't care. It is not my responsibility to prove it. Keep it posted.

If you don’t care or understand, then perhaps it’s not appropriate to stir the pot.

 

[franz12]

If you don’t care or understand, then perhaps it’s not appropriate to stir the pot.

Nope.

 

[Whazzzup]

Well then bump, just for giggles