[MBlue72]

 
Hello:
 
I found this terrific site a few weeks ago and have learned a lot. I have searched quite a bit, but am still confused a bit. This is my first post and appreciate any help you can give.
 
I am a long-time music lover with a full system who is considering getting into headphones. Although much of my equipment is older, it is pretty good – McIntosh C37 preamp and MC7300 amp, Nakamichi CR-7A tape deck, Klipschorn speakers, etc. I have ripped my 750 CDs onto hard drives using dBpoweramp in FLAC lossless format. I have a Squeezebox Touch that is the front end for the system described above. I drive the Touch via a Belkin wireless router. My Windows computer and the router are in the same large room with the stereo equipment. My passion (addiction?) is classical music. At this time, I do not own a DAC other than the circuitry within the Squeezebox Touch (which, for the money, is quite good). I am postponing adding a DAC pending the decisions described below.
 
I am considering purchasing Sennheiser HD800 headphones. Once I purchase the headphones, I will evaluate them (and break them in) by using the headphone jack of my McIntosh preamp and/or the Touch. Unfortunately, all my stereo equipment is about 25 feet from the chair where I’ll be listening to the headphones. For the coming months (while my wallet heals) I will use the headphones as described above with the cable (and extension) running to my “listening chair.” I am pretty sure I won’t be happy with this arrangement (the cable lying on the floor and possibly the performance of the HD800s being driven by my older preamp). The easy chair I use is a few feet from my computer so there is an obvious alternative – to purchase a headphone amp and connect it directly to the computer. So here (finally!) are my questions:
 

• I have read many opinions here that the HD800s are served well by tubed amps. I have read many positive opinions on the Woo Audio WA6 and the Little Dot Mk III amps. Both of these seem to have only RCA inputs. How are these to be connected to the USB sockets of the computer? Are there adapters sold for this purpose? Do they degrade the signal?
• Will I also need to add a USB DAC between the computer and the amp? Would the HD800 still sound great without a DAC in the chain?
• I understand that there are available AMP/DACs such as Yulong D100 (also highly regarded by many). But would I lose the smoothing provided by the tubes?
• In such a setup, does the quality of the sound card come into play at all? Or is it a non issue?

 
Any help or advice on these questions is greatly appreciated. I am trying to find a strategy that will give me high quality sound quality comparable to the rest of my system but without costing a fortune.
 
Thanks very much,
 
Dave

 

[TwoEars]

Hello and welcome! Some thoughts:
 
1. The HD800 is a quite expensive headphone to jump straight to, it is also very unforgiving in terms of source and amplification. I would recommend the HD650 instead which is a much more affordable way to get into the Sennheiser sound, and I myself actually prefer the HD650 over the HD800. It's a great alrounder and very good with classical. You can also go for a Grado headphone, they're good with classical in my opinion. I'd stay away from Ultrasones.
 
2. Yes you will need a DAC, buy something good that will last you a while. Many good options out there.
 
3. There are solid state amps that sound a bit like tubes, most notably the Burson HA-160 which while it doesn't add any "vibes" is warm and nice sounding if you like that kind of thing. On the other hand there are tubes that sound like solid state.... so there you go....

 

[scootermafia]

Audeze LCD-2s are a lot more forgiving than HD800 in terms of gear, cable, and choice of music tracks.  They have a much more up front bassy sound, with nearly as much transparency, although the HD800 have this hyper-ethereal mega sized sound to them they do sound a bit thin by comparison.  Their price point is in between, and worth considering.  They are also easier to drive.

 

[MBlue72]

 
Thanks for the feedback and ideas.
 
I haven’t finalized my decision on which headphones to purchase and am actually still considering the HD650s as well, so I welcome your feedback there. I am leaning toward the HD800s due to primarily three reasons. First, they seem to be more highly regarded for classical music. I have read of more people that prefer the HD800s to the HD650s than the other way around, although I understand this is very subjective and a personal decision. Their wider soundstage is especially attractive to me for the kind of listening I do. Second, I am a large guy and have a large head. I’ve read opinions that the HD800s are much more comfortable to wear than the 650s – not only accommodating larger heads (and ears, etc.) but also cooler to wear. Third, but less importantly, I worry that the “upgrade” path may be more expensive in the long run (buying HD650s first, then upgrading later). Then there is always the “pre-emptive purchase” problem – having spent $400 on 650s may preclude me from ever upgrading to the high(er) end 850s. But TwoEars you make an excellent point: the cost differential is huge – the difference now stands at $1100 on Amazon.
 
With regard to the DAC – I will add one next year and am considering the Anedio D1. Twoears, I believe you also own this DAC (I’ve seen your contributions on that thread). I have been very interested in the thread began by Project86 (including his comprehensive review!) and all of the very positive feedback from others too.
But I thought I should first start with the headphone purchase and go from there. I am still interested in feedback on how to hook up a headphone amp as outlined in my OP. Although I am not yet sure I will need to go that route (a separate headphone amp rather than using the Anedio D1 to drive my phones), I would like to understand the costs before I plunge in and make a purchase of the phones.
 
Thanks again to both of you for your input.

 

[TwoEars]

Quote:

I’ve read opinions that the HD800s are much more comfortable to wear than the 650s – not only accommodating larger heads (and ears, etc.) but also cooler to wear.

Funny -  I find the HD650s more comfortable with thicker padding. The HD650 is the single most comfortable headphone I know, I spend a lot of time in front of the computer working, listening to music and gaming and I wear the HD650 for hours on end without problems - you don't think about them at all after a while. Anyone who complain about the HD650 being warm to wear don't know what they're talking about - Closed Denon D7000s with leather ear pads can get hot after a while. The Senns are open with velour padding.
 
The Senn HD600 can also be found, they are better for classical than the HD650 which is a little heavier sounding and better for pop/rock/electronica.
 
I would advice you not to go for the HD800 without trying them out and having the equipment to back them up... they are very picky with source and amp and it's not even certain you'll enjoy their sound. I tried at least 10 high-end headphones before I realized that the HD650 was what I was looking for, it's rare that the first headphone you buy will be the last... better to start cheap and try a couple cheaper grados, AKGs, Senns, Denons etc...
 
Rather than start with a really expensive pair of headphones I'd start with a really good source... everything starts with the source.... an Anedio D1 and Sennheiser HD600 would probably be an amazing classical setup right there.

 

[MBlue72]

Well, I guess I am getting OT a bit but how do you know before buying? I live in a rural area and have no shops nearby that even carry the high end Senns.  I was thinking of buying the headphones through Amazon who allows returns for 30 days but I don't want to abuse that privilege. 
 
Also, a point of clarification – are you (TwoEars) saying you find the HD650s more comfortable that the HD800s?
 
It certainly is an appealing thought: I could buy HD600/650 headphones and the Anedio D1 for just a little more than the HD800s alone. 
 
Thanks again.
 
Dave 

 

[TwoEars]

I would definitely pick the HD600/D1 combo over a HD800, a system is only as good as its weakest link.
 
One problem though might be that the D1 is temporarily sold-out while they upgrade the USB interface. So if you want the best possible USB interface (I don't use it) you might want to wait for that.
 
Overall though I'd really recommend you to buy a pair of HD600 headphones (very comfortable and good for classical) and then spend the rest of the money on a DAC and AMP or combo unit, there are many good options around so don't obsess too much over the D1 even though it is very good.
 
I think you're too obsessed about comfort here.... the HD600/650/HD800 are all VERY comfortable headphones, Sennheiser is very good with this. Whichever model you choose I can't see you having any comfort problems with it.
 
So start with the HD600 and then find a good DAC and maybe use your existing amp, that could be an interesting start. The HD600 is IMHO just as good for classical as the HD800 so no need to spend more than that for the headphones.

 

[MBlue72]

 
TwoEars – thanks for all your help. Yes, I’m aware that the Anedio is temporarily unavailable and that the owner is working to upgrade the USB inputs. I am actually hoping that he will also improve the D1's headphone amp. There has been some discussion on that thread of whether or not the D1 can drive 300 ohm headphones (such as the higher end Senns). Some think the headphone amp is just fine the way it is, others have stated it would benefit from more “oomph” so as to give 300 ohm phones more headroom. It seems to me he could further widen the D1's market appeal with such an upgrade. 
 
Just to be clear, I wasn’t thinking of not adding a DAC. It’s just that I didn’t want add an HD800 and an Anedio D1 at the same time, preferring to spread out the cash outlay.
 
As to HD800 vs. HD650 vs. HD600 for classical music (only) … maybe I’ll ask that question on the Headphones sub-forum too – although I really appreciate your input here.
 
But can I re-ask the question about how you were able to test many high end phones before making your final purchase decision? Did you attend a "meet"? Did you make several purchases?
 
Thanks again,
 
Dave

 

[TwoEars]

No worries, you seem to be a sensible guy so I'm glad to be of help
 
I've attended a few meets, have some friends who are into headphones and also know a guy who owns a very nice audio store with lots of cool gear, both old and new. He's more than happy for me to come in and audition whatever he has in the store and bs about music, cables or the latest equipment whenever business is slow.
 
What I would like to say is that as you move into more and more expensive headphones you tend to get "more of the same" from each manufacturer, they don't like to stray too much from their sound signature. So you can happily buy four $200 headphones from AKG, Ultrasone, Sennheiser & Grado and you'll quickly find out what tickles your fancy.
 
What I also would like to say is that $200-400 headphones are very good these days, it's more about finding what you like than what is the "best".

 

[scootermafia]

A poorly geared HD800 still sounds better than cheaper headphones.  You can always upgrade the gear later, but lesser headphones you're stuck with that sound.

 

[MBlue72]

Thanks Scootermafia - I think I'll start another thread asking opinions on the Headphones sub-forum, too. I placed this here mainly to try to find out more on how the Woo or the Little Dot would be connected to my computer.
 
Dave

 

[crazyfrenchman27]

If you could attend a head-fi meet, that would be an immense influence on your future purchases.
 
I would wait a couple months to hit the next one that comes up, sample the best gear, buy ONE headphone (THE BEST), an amp to drive them, a source, and maybe ONE IEM (THE BEST).  Then leave this site forever before you succumb to massive group think, placebo effect, delusional hyperbole, FOTM mania, and all the other stuff that will leave you broke.
 
I wish I had done that starting out because it would have given me a lot more time to listen to the music and worry about other stuff as opposed to whether I had the coolest gear at that particular moment in time.
 
But yeah, you seem to be headed in the right direction, which is great.  Good job.