[Spyro]

I don't understand the danger of running with IEM's (outside) unless perhaps you are in the city where congestion is an issue.

But if you live in suburbs and you stay on sidewalks, trails or the side of the road it shouldn't be an issue. If you are on the side/shoulder of the road and someone is going to veer off and hit you I don't think whether you had IEM's on or not is really going to help you.

 

[StevieDvd]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lsportline43 ... I bought the UM2 hoping that they would be the only headphone/IEM that I would need. Then I bought the $20 Koss KSC 75 and everything changed... I couldn't believe $20 headphones could sound SO much better than $250 IEMs! After this experience I sold the Westone UM2s and now I am IEM-less. Don't get me wrong I LOVE IEMs. But not for quiet listening. On a bus/train or any loud environment IEMs are AMAZING! Other than that they serve NO purpose, IMO. (Well maybe for musicans...) I am planning on buying some IEM again, but nothing over $150. Maybe some Westone UM1s...

I'm sorry I don't follow your logic. You prefer the $20 Koss KSC75 over UM2s and sold both and perhaps may buy the UM1s!

 

[luckybaer]

I think I understand where everything is going here.

IEMs and full-sized cans are different types of products and each are suited for different types of listening environments and uses. This is like comparing an SUV to a Sports Sedan.

IEM strengths include portability and isolation. Within the IEM category, there are various sound signatures - some tend to be more "bassy" (as much as a small IEM can be considered "bassy"), etc. Whether you choose one model over another depends on your ears and what YOU like to hear.

Full-sized cans (at least mid- to hi-fi level) provide wider soundstages and a wider variety of sound signatures. Of course, this comes with lesser portability (try wearing a set of DT 770 on a treadmill or while biking - lol) and less isolation than an IEM. To further complicate things, there are closed cans and open cans.

All I can say is that IEMs provide the ultimate in portability and (in the cases of better IEMs) isolation. There is no contest with any other type of headphone - buds, closed cans, open cans, circumaural, or whatever. However, because they have smaller drivers AND they are stuffed in your ear canal, they just are not able (for the most part) to reproduce "punchy" "air-moving" bass or a wide soundstage.

Bottom line: If your priorities are decent sound, portability, and isolation, a good set of IEMs are what you need. If portability and isolation are not key drivers for you, you will probably be better served by a good full-sized can that fits your listening preferences - i.e. bass-head, detail freak, etc.

 

[Lsportline43]

Quote:

Originally Posted by StevieDvd I'm sorry I don't follow your logic. You prefer the $20 Koss KSC75 over UM2s and sold both and perhaps may buy the UM1s!

Sorry, I was writing that post when it was really late and I didn't reread what I wrote.

What I am saying is: For quiet listening I prefer non-IEM headphones. The Koss KSC 75 were the headphones that made me realize this. My PX 200s did not have the soundstage of the KSC 75. I'm guessing this is because the PX 200s are closed design.

I bought the UM2s, at $255, and thought that these IEM would do the trick for all of my listening needs. But I realized that IEM cannot produce the soundstage that headphones can. So I sold my UM2s and used my PX 200 for listening in loud environments. Although not as good as IEM, the PX 200 serve the purpose fairly well.

Basically I sold the UM2s because they were too much money for their purpose. Which was to be used for on the go listening. The benefits the UM2 has over my former IEM, Shure E2c, is not great enough to justify its price, IMO. And as for the UM1s, I would buy them because I liked the way the UM2s were shaped. The UM1 has a similar design. And the most important reason is because the price is about half that of the UM2.

 

[Jasper994]

Quote:

Originally Posted by luckybaer I think I understand where everything is going here. IEMs and full-sized cans are different types of products and each are suited for different types of listening environments and uses. This is like comparing an SUV to a Sports Sedan. IEM strengths include portability and isolation. Within the IEM category, there are various sound signatures - some tend to be more "bassy" (as much as a small IEM can be considered "bassy"), etc. Whether you choose one model over another depends on your ears and what YOU like to hear. Full-sized cans (at least mid- to hi-fi level) provide wider soundstages and a wider variety of sound signatures. Of course, this comes with lesser portability (try wearing a set of DT 770 on a treadmill or while biking - lol) and less isolation than an IEM. To further complicate things, there are closed cans and open cans. All I can say is that IEMs provide the ultimate in portability and (in the cases of better IEMs) isolation. There is no contest with any other type of headphone - buds, closed cans, open cans, circumaural, or whatever. However, because they have smaller drivers AND they are stuffed in your ear canal, they just are not able (for the most part) to reproduce "punchy" "air-moving" bass or a wide soundstage. Bottom line: If your priorities are decent sound, portability, and isolation, a good set of IEMs are what you need. If portability and isolation are not key drivers for you, you will probably be better served by a good full-sized can that fits your listening preferences - i.e. bass-head, detail freak, etc.

Have you even heard a decent IEM? Your thoughts scream of inexperience. The only area where IEMs are at a real loss is in soundstage. They can produce detail to rival even the nicest headphones, and can produce big bass. Duh the single driver IEMs will struggle to produce big bass... And the UM2 doesn't provide a lot of slam, but that's not true of all IEMs. The only other area where you can say most IEMs suffer is in "airyness," but this is the nature of all closed design headphones and earphones. Don't forget too, that the airy sound produced by open headphones in not necessarily accurate either since most venues are closed and sounds produced within them cannot travel off into infinity...

A lot of people on this board make comments with very limited or no experience, then make broad assumptions based off that little experience or what they've heard.

This is like me trying out a crappy stereo mini system and saying: "Speakers suck, and can't produce deep impactful bass. What bass they do produce is one note undefined crap. To make matters worse, they can't image, and have terrible soundstage." and "I've heard more detail from a tin can."

It makes sense to say: "I've tried the UM2, and I don't feel that the bass is very impactful." But it doesn't make sense to say: "I tried the UM2, and didn't like them, therefore, all IEMs suck!" This is just silly. Also remember, many of the finer points of a good headphone/earphone or speaker will not be obvious to the inexperience listener. Hence, so many people like their loud one note subwoofers, and distorted car stereo systems.

 

[milkpowder]

Quote:

Originally Posted by LaBreaHead With headphones, you're in the studio with the band. With IEMs, the band is in your head. The tradeoff , of course, is the isolation and portability that IEMs offer.

Agreed. You also get good detail and very accurate sound. Of course, I'm speaking very vaguely here as well.

 

[luckybaer]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jasper994 Have you even heard a decent IEM? Your thoughts scream of inexperience. The only area where IEMs are at a real loss is in soundstage. They can produce detail to rival even the nicest headphones, and can produce big bass. Duh the single driver IEMs will struggle to produce big bass... And the UM2 doesn't provide a lot of slam, but that's not true of all IEMs. The only other area where you can say most IEMs suffer is in "airyness," but this is the nature of all closed design headphones and earphones. Don't forget too, that the airy sound produced by open headphones in not necessarily accurate either since most venues are closed and sounds produced within them cannot travel off into infinity... A lot of people on this board make comments with very limited or no experience, then make broad assumptions based off that little experience or what they've heard. This is like me trying out a crappy stereo mini system and saying: "Speakers suck, and can't produce deep impactful bass. What bass they do produce is one note undefined crap. To make matters worse, they can't image, and have terrible soundstage." and "I've heard more detail from a tin can." It makes sense to say: "I've tried the UM2, and I don't feel that the bass is very impactful." But it doesn't make sense to say: "I tried the UM2, and didn't like them, therefore, all IEMs suck!" This is just silly. Also remember, many of the finer points of a good headphone/earphone or speaker will not be obvious to the inexperience listener. Hence, so many people like their loud one note subwoofers, and distorted car stereo systems.

Uh... I've tried the EX-71, E3c, E4c, SuperFi 5 Pro, SuperFi EB thingies. Have I tried all IEMs? Nope. Have I tried really high-end IEMs? Nope. We all speak from our experiences, and some people in this forum have lots of experience, and others have less. I think I've been humble enough in my posts to not criticize products unless they are worthy of trashing. I really don't see where I criticized IEMs. There ARE trade-offs for everything. I'm just offering up my thoughts and experience based upon the products that I have tried. I think I offer up some food for thought without coming across as a cheeky know-it-all.


Thanks for the attempt at inflating your self-worth through being condescending in an Internet forum. Nice try, but you didn't quite pull it off. If Rod Roddy were still alive, I'd ask him to rattle of your list of parting goods. It shows great character, and it might even impress the other pompous asses and teenagers in the audience, but it just makes me laugh and shake my head. Another example of a socially handicapped person trying to strut his/her stuff in a fourm. LOL.

 

[Spyro]

On a lighter note....what is the difference or correlation in "soundstage" versus intricate and distinct separation of instruments (left, right, far left, far right, etc)? Thanks.

 

[Lsportline43]

Quote:

Originally Posted by unlimitedx I mean on the treadmill and such, working out.

Got ya...

 

[Lsportline43]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jasper994 Have you even heard a decent IEM? Your thoughts scream of inexperience. The only area where IEMs are at a real loss is in soundstage. They can produce detail to rival even the nicest headphones, and can produce big bass. Duh the single driver IEMs will struggle to produce big bass... And the UM2 doesn't provide a lot of slam, but that's not true of all IEMs. The only other area where you can say most IEMs suffer is in "airyness," but this is the nature of all closed design headphones and earphones. Don't forget too, that the airy sound produced by open headphones in not necessarily accurate either since most venues are closed and sounds produced within them cannot travel off into infinity... A lot of people on this board make comments with very limited or no experience, then make broad assumptions based off that little experience or what they've heard. This is like me trying out a crappy stereo mini system and saying: "Speakers suck, and can't produce deep impactful bass. What bass they do produce is one note undefined crap. To make matters worse, they can't image, and have terrible soundstage." and "I've heard more detail from a tin can." It makes sense to say: "I've tried the UM2, and I don't feel that the bass is very impactful." But it doesn't make sense to say: "I tried the UM2, and didn't like them, therefore, all IEMs suck!" This is just silly. Also remember, many of the finer points of a good headphone/earphone or speaker will not be obvious to the inexperience listener. Hence, so many people like their loud one note subwoofers, and distorted car stereo systems.

What's wrong with luckbaer's comments? I see many good points that he made in this previous post.

I've only tried the Shure E2c and Westone UM2 and I am assuming that ALL IEM sound relatively the same. Why? Because they all have similar designs. There are high quality IEM and low grade IEM, but they all have the problem with the soundstage. This is why I have decided that spending over $150 on IEM is just not worth it.

 

[nightfire]

I find IEMs to be the headphone type with the most difference from model to model. Sure the sound signatures between an RS-1, HD-650 and K701 are all different, but it's nothing like the differences between an E5c, ER4 or UE-10.

While most people prefer a particular high end can for a particular type of music, some people absolutely love or hate the sound of a particular IEM. It might also have something to do with ear canal shape, as the signature of a single IEM changes significantly with positioning, tip type, stem length, etc.

That could explain why there are so many varying opinions.

Personally for myself, the ER4-s (out of my DA10's XLR) is more detailed, transparent and accurate than any other listening device I've heard in my life (speakers or headphones). I'm currently in search of a full-size can with identical characteristics that I can use at work, because isolation isn't as important to me (and I'm getting tired of jamming things in my ears only to take them out 5 minutes later).

 

[luckybaer]

Quote:

Originally Posted by nightfire I find IEMs to be the headphone type with the most difference from model to model. Sure the sound signatures between an RS-1, HD-650 and K701 are all different, but it's nothing like the differences between an E5c, ER4 or UE-10. While most people prefer a particular high end can for a particular type of music, some people absolutely love or hate the sound of a particular IEM. It might also have something to do with ear canal shape, as the signature of a single IEM changes significantly with positioning, tip type, stem length, etc. That could explain why there are so many varying opinions. Personally for myself, the ER4-s (out of my DA10's XLR) is more detailed, transparent and accurate than any other listening device I've heard in my life (speakers or headphones). I'm currently in search of a full-size can with identical characteristics that I can use at work, because isolation isn't as important to me (and I'm getting tired of jamming things in my ears only to take them out 5 minutes later).

I agree with you about how IEMs seem to be really divisive - "love or hate the sound of a particular IEM."

Hey, do your ER4-s benefit from your Gilmore Lite, or do you even bother using them amped?

 

[nightfire]

Quote:

Originally Posted by luckybaer Hey, do your ER4-s benefit from your Gilmore Lite, or do you even bother using them amped?

Well I got my Lavry before my Gilmore so I fell in love with the sound straight out of the headphone jack (at first). After a couple weeks, my Gilmore came in and I went to buy some XLR and RCA jacks to make a custom cable to connect them together, but I couldn't wait till I got home (where my Gilmore was) to try it out - so I made an XLR->1/4" headphone cable at work instead.

I originally intended to use my Gilmore at home to drive my Grados (from my H/K AVR 75), so it was a week or two before I actually got a chance to do some critical listening with the Lavry->Gilmore->ER4s setup.

Basically, the ER4s are so sensitive that the DA10 balanced output stage has more than enough reserve to drive them. The XLR out is slightly more forward than the headphone jack, though the mids can get a touch grainy (particularly on Bjork and Portishead albums). The bass is ever so slightly recessed, but the sound is very airy. The soundstage is just bloody enormous, as far as IEMs go. The smear I occasionally heard on cymbals was lifted; Erik Truffaz, And Justice For All, 311, etc., sound so RAZOR sharp, clean, and yet not fatigueing.

On the other hand, with the Gilmore, the mids smooth out (similar to the headphone jack). The treble seems to roll off a touch (ie. at 20k, not 25k

), yet the sound feels more immediate. It's a strange effect. Though, it may be due to my subpar cable (standard $20 RCA, silver-soldered to the XLR plug). The bass is a bit stronger, though not necessarily more defined.

Listening to bass-heavy songs with delicate vocals (like Bjork's Hyper-Ballad), the Gilmore maintained brilliant separation and zero distortion. The XLR was hurting a little (though by no means was it bad), and the headphone jack was somewhere in between.

After about a month of switching back and forth, I think I'm most happy with the ER4-p (no 75ohm cable) running straight from the XLR out, using modified tri-flanges (bi-flanged, with the foamy tube inserted, clipped 2mm). But I might just be fooling myself so that I don't have to buy a dedicated amp for work.

Now having said all this, the Lavry is one solid piece of equipment to begin with - but the Gilmore makes an *enormous* difference compared to the stock headphone output of my AVR 75, or, god help me, my PDA. Absolutely worth it if the output of your player is so/so.

 

[Jasper994]

Quote:

Originally Posted by luckybaer Thanks for the attempt at inflating your self-worth through being condescending in an Internet forum. Nice try, but you didn't quite pull it off. If Rod Roddy were still alive, I'd ask him to rattle of your list of parting goods. It shows great character, and it might even impress the other pompous asses and teenagers in the audience, but it just makes me laugh and shake my head. Another example of a socially handicapped person trying to strut his/her stuff in a fourm. LOL

My apologies, I think I came off much harsher than I intended. After reading your post (in particular where you say there's no contest between IEMs and "buds" and "closed cans") and the guy with the KSC75, I was on a bit of a rant. Here's the part I was talking about specifically.

Quote:

Originally Posted by luckybaer There is no contest with any other type of headphone - buds, closed cans, open cans, circumaural, or whatever. However, because they have smaller drivers AND they are stuffed in your ear canal, they just are not able (for the most part) to reproduce "punchy" "air-moving" bass or a wide soundstage. Bottom line: If your priorities are decent sound, portability, and isolation, a good set of IEMs are what you need. If portability and isolation are not key drivers for you, you will probably be better served by a good full-sized can that fits your listening preferences - i.e. bass-head, detail freak, etc.

The thing is, IEMs CAN produce hard hitting bass to rival any headphone. The only difference is that you won't feel it hitting the outsides of your ears and head. If you measure bass impact based upon how much air it pushes against the side of your head and outer ear, I suppose you have a point, but I don't think that's an accurate measure.

I do agree that the soundstage is smaller, but that's really the IEMs only disadvantage to a closed headphone. Even there, I think the SF5P comes pretty close to most closed headphones in soundstage. Open headphones gain an advantage by having an open and airy sound. I haven't tried them, but I'd guess that some of the hybrid IEMs that are not sealed can give a bigger soundstage, perhaps rivaling an open headphone.

Again, I do apologize for coming off as a condesending jerk. My intent was actually to rant more than attack, but I can see how my comment came off more as an attack.

-Aaron

 

[3805]

The most important difference imo that most people are omitting is that all
IEMs really don't have much (if any) response over 16khz. [This includes the overblown specifications of sony ex71, senn cx300, etc].

Now depending on the person, this may or may not be a huge difference.
Some of us (this used to be an estimated average, but has since changed)
can hear up to 20,000hz. The average listener can hear up to 18000hz. And then there are the unlucky folks who can only hear up to ~16khz, or less. Thus, when one has an opinion about the performance of IEMs, it greatly depends on how they perceive sound in the first place.

As for me, I don't think ANY IEM can possesss the high-end presence of a fairly decent dynamic, open headphone [say, the grado sr-60]. And I can hear up to about 20khz. Others can sense no difference or 'negligible difference'.