Newbie help: Audeze Sine vs Meze 99 Classics vs V-Moda XS/M-80/100 vs Hifiman HE400
Jan 24, 2017 at 8:03 PM Post #31 of 44
You are absolutely right Buke. It was the wrong question to ask Sony vs Meze.

What I should have asked was, I like the deep but tight bass on the Sonys, but am not enjoying the recessed mids and rolled off treble on them.

Am I right in thinking the Meze has more clearer and slightly north of neutral mids and treble that is crisper, but not too sparkly?

So basically I'm looking for slightly more forward mids and a few notches up on the treble sparkle.

From the various reviews on the Meze, it seems to fit the bill.
Sorry I have not heard the Sony's so I can't say. How they compare can't say. Most of my cans tend to be brighter so I'm used to that and these are not bright but not dark more towards neutral than bright depends on the song. I just can't say these are better than the Sony's as I haven't heard them. Are they good headphones for the money ? Yes I think so. Listen to so Daft Punk Musique Vol 1 and they are bright enough for this and the bass is also good. As with all things audio YMMV. Good luck.
 
Jan 24, 2017 at 8:10 PM Post #32 of 44
Whatever you do give the new cans at least a week before you decide if you like them or not. Your brain needs time to adjust to the different sound.
 
Jan 24, 2017 at 9:20 PM Post #34 of 44
I've read the Sines are bass neutral, which is probably not what I'm looking for, unless they have good depth and extension?

Unless someone comments on the Audeze Sines, I think the choice has wittled down to the Meze 99s.

So therefore, final question......How much better are the Meze 99s compared to the Sony 100aap? The Sony has a great following on Head-Fi. People who say it's the best headphones under £200. If so, then at £50 for the Sony, are the Meze 99s really £200 better than the Sony's or just marginal?

Thanks again.


£200 better is coming into the territory of diminishing returns and it's hard to quantify in those terms like 10% better etc. as there are so many factors which make up a sound signiature.
You have to consider that users will have some form of confirmation bias based on what they own so take that into consideration when you hear claims of 'best headphone at a price point'. Everything comes into play, what one's reference point is, preferences, sources, music choice etc. There is no 'best headphone'; one man's nectar is another's poison. I am primarily a collector and everything I own has a weakness of some sort or another as well as strengths irrispective of budget. Saying that there is a best headphone is like claiming to know what the best food is.

I know I've heard the MDR-100AAP, at HMV where there were a bunch of headphones on display, but they left little impression on me because I recall them sounding soft; we're talking a 10min audition a while back but soundstage was decently wide, they sounded clear but with an obvious treble roll-off and recessed mids which left them lacking attack but also punch. Purely on performance, at their price point they're not at the top within their budget whereas a headphone like the Meze 99 is at the top at it's price point.
The Meze 99 has a similar soundstage, a sweeter more forward mid range, more extension in the treble and a slight boost in the mid-bass which provides a sweeter presentation for vocals. They are extremely capable, easy to drive and provided you can get used to the clamping (which softens over time anyway) are fairly comfortable. Can't comment on the larger pads because they weren't available when I looked at them.

When looking for a replacement to the V-Moda M100 the 99s left the M100 sounding like it lacked resolution; a clearer more detailed presentation. The M100s have more mid bass as well as reaching deeper but the mids/vocal presentation on the 99s is sweeter, more upfront and more emotional. The treble is similar on both, to my ears but due to that clearer presentation, the 99s make it easier to discern detail and are more resolving. The bass presentation has far more emphasis at around 150-200Hz though and there is roll-off below which means I couldn't hear proper extension into sub-bass regions which is something I personally hold as quite important.
They are a very musical headphone with a warm, fun, inviting tone.

Now... the following is more for clarity around the Audeze Sine and for the most part you can ignore what is in italics as I'm not going to recommend them anyway:

As for the Audeze Sine, I can understand again that preference will come into play but personally I do not like the implementation of the Lightning Cable compared to a decent source despite what other professional reviewers state. The Sine headphones capabilities excel what the Lightning/Cipher cable can deliver and in that respect scale suitably with better sources.
In comparison, the Audeze Sine makes my M100s sound like pure mud. The Sines are not bass neutral, it is, however flatter than the Meze. I understand some have a preference for more mid-bass emphasis however the Sine has a noticeably deeper bass extension with the ability to convey serious bass texture and for the most part, is what I listen to metal and electronica with outside. Presentation is clear and visceral. The bass is tight and nuanced to the point where they present instruments like kick drums with a noticable impact. Mids and vocals are wonderfully balanced and treble is well extended though I do note a dip at around 7KHz... a frequency I am not a fan of anyway. It means you can turn up the volume without experiencing issues on simblant tracks. The resolving capabilities are their most impressive aspect by some considerable margin. The amount of texture they can convey is astounding given their price and for me are the one mid-fi headphone where I don't feel I'm compromising as much compared to what my desktop headphones deliver while I'm out.
Their sound signiature is more of a warm reference sound while still retaining a musical presentation.

So I had the Meze 99 and Audeze Sine at the same time for about 2 months. Comparing the Meze 99 to the Audeze Sine, the 99s are warmer sounding with more mid-bass emphasis and slightly more warmth in the lower mids. The Sines are more of a warm reference sound with a faster, clearer presentation and deeper bass response to the point where it is quite noticeable that there are sub 80Hz frequencies the 99s simply do not deliver on. Moving into the mids, the Sine has a less sweet mid presentation than the 99s due to that mid-bass boost however vocal presentation is clear with both. Treble presentation on the Sines is more detailed than the 99s however that is not to say the 99s are lacking, it's more their signiature is that much warmer throughout the spectrum. The Sines sound more resolving, due to that clarity, all the way to the top frequencies.
Comfort wise the Audeze Sine also clamps but not as hard as the Meze 99s however the 99s are slightly lighter for long term use. On a personal level I prefer the minimalist black look of the Sines compared to the exotic mix of metal and wood of the Meze which is a little 'inyeface' for my tastes. Ultimately I gave the Meze 99s away as they didn't have a niche to fulfill.

I note Tyll's review PL4Y3R 0N3 linked. Tyll has a preference for a slight 150Hz emphasis, which I think is the preference for a majority of headphone users and partially why he also liked the Meze 99, adding it to the 'Wall of Fame' at their price. Nevertheless I also note that in his review for the Audeze Sine he stated they will go onto the 'Hall of Fame' at the highest point within the closed on-ear category at any price:
http://www.innerfidelity.com/content/sports-car-your-head-audeze-sine-and-cipher-lightning-cable#PTCu1Sx6ZiL1Bf7O.97

All that said my details on the Audeze Sine is now going to be rendered moot as I am going to join everyone else in recommending the Meze 99 for your purposes. The problem with the Sines is they are source dependant... and by that I am talking about power and tonality. My Sines are harder to drive than some of my TOTL headphones, which makes for one problem and the AudioQuest Dragonfly is limited to a 2x45mW output at 32Ohms, given it is powered off a USB supply; simply, it will not drive them properly. Tonally they benefit from a warm, detailed source and the Audioquest Dragonfly is more neutral... or at least the DAC it utilses is... as I'm only familiar with the DAC, not the Dragonfly. Even with expensive sources, a less warm feed will make for an anaemic pairing.


I feel the warmer presentation of the Meze, despite it's lack of sub-bass extension, is going to be more to your liking given what you're looking for. That said I think the budget has to be increased significantly to find a headphone which will out perform it while retaining its strengths. As well as this the Meze are far more forgiving with poor recordings and that is going to be amplified if you're using them to stream compressed media. Lastly they do not require an uber powerful or specifically tuned source to sound their best... though they do benefit from a decent source with brighter tonality. The Audioquest Dragonfly utilises a Sabre ES9010K2M DAC which err on the side of neutral (compared to, for example the warmer presentation of Wolfson DACs) and this should make for a fine pairing.
Given your requirements, preferences and source, there really isn't much competition to the Meze 99 for your purposes.

I wish you luck on your audio journey.
 
Jan 24, 2017 at 9:40 PM Post #35 of 44
£200 better is coming into the territory of diminishing returns and it's hard to quantify in those terms like 10% better etc. as there are so many factors which make up a sound signiature.
You have to consider that users will have some form of confirmation bias based on what they own so take that into consideration when you hear claims of 'best headphone at a price point'. Everything comes into play, what one's reference point is, preferences, sources, music choice etc. There is no 'best headphone'; one man's nectar is another's poison. I am primarily a collector and everything I own has a weakness of some sort or another as well as strengths irrispective of budget. Saying that there is a best headphone is like claiming to know what the best food is.

I know I've heard the MDR-100AAP, at HMV where there were a bunch of headphones on display, but they left little impression on me because I recall them sounding soft; we're talking a 10min audition a while back but soundstage was decently wide, they sounded clear but with an obvious treble roll-off and recessed mids which left them lacking attack but also punch. Purely on performance, at their price point they're not at the top within their budget whereas a headphone like the Meze 99 is at the top at it's price point.
The Meze 99 has a similar soundstage, a sweeter more forward mid range, more extension in the treble and a slight boost in the mid-bass which provides a sweeter presentation for vocals. They are extremely capable, easy to drive and provided you can get used to the clamping (which softens over time anyway) are fairly comfortable. Can't comment on the larger pads because they weren't available when I looked at them.

When looking for a replacement to the V-Moda M100 the 99s left the M100 sounding like it lacked resolution; a clearer more detailed presentation. The M100s have more mid bass as well as reaching deeper but the mids/vocal presentation on the 99s is sweeter, more upfront and more emotional. The treble is similar on both, to my ears but due to that clearer presentation, the 99s make it easier to discern detail and are more resolving. The bass presentation has far more emphasis at around 150-200Hz though and there is roll-off below which means I couldn't hear proper extension into sub-bass regions which is something I personally hold as quite important.
They are a very musical headphone with a warm, fun, inviting tone.

Now... the following is more for clarity around the Audeze Sine and for the most part you can ignore what is in italics as I'm not going to recommend them anyway:

As for the Audeze Sine, I can understand again that preference will come into play but personally I do not like the implementation of the Lightning Cable compared to a decent source despite what other professional reviewers state. The Sine headphones capabilities excel what the Lightning/Cipher cable can deliver and in that respect scale suitably with better sources.
In comparison, the Audeze Sine makes my M100s sound like pure mud. The Sines are not bass neutral, it is, however flatter than the Meze. I understand some have a preference for more mid-bass emphasis however the Sine has a noticeably deeper bass extension with the ability to convey serious bass texture and for the most part, is what I listen to metal and electronica with outside. Presentation is clear and visceral. The bass is tight and nuanced to the point where they present instruments like kick drums with a noticable impact. Mids and vocals are wonderfully balanced and treble is well extended though I do note a dip at around 7KHz... a frequency I am not a fan of anyway. It means you can turn up the volume without experiencing issues on simblant tracks. The resolving capabilities are their most impressive aspect by some considerable margin. The amount of texture they can convey is astounding given their price and for me are the one mid-fi headphone where I don't feel I'm compromising as much compared to what my desktop headphones deliver while I'm out.
Their sound signiature is more of a warm reference sound while still retaining a musical presentation.

So I had the Meze 99 and Audeze Sine at the same time for about 2 months. Comparing the Meze 99 to the Audeze Sine, the 99s are warmer sounding with more mid-bass emphasis and slightly more warmth in the lower mids. The Sines are more of a warm reference sound with a faster, clearer presentation and deeper bass response to the point where it is quite noticeable that there are sub 80Hz frequencies the 99s simply do not deliver on. Moving into the mids, the Sine has a less sweet mid presentation than the 99s due to that mid-bass boost however vocal presentation is clear with both. Treble presentation on the Sines is more detailed than the 99s however that is not to say the 99s are lacking, it's more their signiature is that much warmer throughout the spectrum. The Sines sound more resolving, due to that clarity, all the way to the top frequencies.
Comfort wise the Audeze Sine also clamps but not as hard as the Meze 99s however the 99s are slightly lighter for long term use. On a personal level I prefer the minimalist black look of the Sines compared to the exotic mix of metal and wood of the Meze which is a little 'inyeface' for my tastes. Ultimately I gave the Meze 99s away as they didn't have a niche to fulfill.

I note Tyll's review PL4Y3R 0N3 linked. Tyll has a preference for a slight 150Hz emphasis, which I think is the preference for a majority of headphone users and partially why he also liked the Meze 99, adding it to the 'Wall of Fame' at their price. Nevertheless I also note that in his review for the Audeze Sine he stated they will go onto the 'Hall of Fame' at the highest point within the closed on-ear category at any price:
http://www.innerfidelity.com/content/sports-car-your-head-audeze-sine-and-cipher-lightning-cable#PTCu1Sx6ZiL1Bf7O.97

All that said my details on the Audeze Sine is now going to be rendered moot as I am going to join everyone else in recommending the Meze 99 for your purposes. The problem with the Sines is they are source dependant... and by that I am talking about power and tonality. My Sines are harder to drive than some of my TOTL headphones, which makes for one problem and the AudioQuest Dragonfly is limited to a 2x45mW output at 32Ohms, given it is powered off a USB supply; simply, it will not drive them properly. Tonally they benefit from a warm, detailed source and the Audioquest Dragonfly is more neutral... or at least the DAC it utilses is... as I'm only familiar with the DAC, not the Dragonfly. Even with expensive sources, a less warm feed will make for an anaemic pairing.


I feel the warmer presentation of the Meze, despite it's lack of sub-bass extension, is going to be more to your liking given what you're looking for. That said I think the budget has to be increased significantly to find a headphone which will out perform it while retaining its strengths. As well as this the Meze are far more forgiving with poor recordings and that is going to be amplified if you're using them to stream compressed media. Lastly they do not require an uber powerful or specifically tuned source to sound their best... though they do benefit from a decent source with brighter tonality. The Audioquest Dragonfly utilises a Sabre ES9010K2M DAC which err on the side of neutral (compared to, for example the warmer presentation of Wolfson DACs) and this should make for a fine pairing.
Given your requirements, preferences and source, there really isn't much competition to the Meze 99 for your purposes.

I wish you luck on your audio journey.
There is no such thing as diminishing returns. There is only the amount your willing to spend. Diminishing returns says you can tell the percentage that one headphone is better than another. Can you quantify the difference between one headphone over another as in percentage more than another?
 
Jan 24, 2017 at 11:51 PM Post #36 of 44
There is no such thing as diminishing returns. There is only the amount your willing to spend. Diminishing returns says you can tell the percentage that one headphone is better than another. Can you quantify the difference between one headphone over another as in percentage more than another?


Well this is completely off topic but nevertheless:
I understand what you're saying but either you've misunderstood what I've said (or I've explained it badly) or we're simply talking semantics here.

Diminishing returns is not a scalar quantity it doesn't need to be, nor is it necessarily measurable in the way you have suggested. It is simply the concept that what is gained by spending more money is less than the amount of money being invested ie. spending twice the money is not going to deliver twice the performance... and I'd add that this is quite widely accepted and known in audio.
The difference in performance between $50 compared to $200 headphones is much larger than the difference between $1000 to $4000 headphones.

The OP asked how much better one headphone is compared to another given that there's a £200 difference in price and I responded by stating, to quote 'it's hard to quantify in those terms like 10% better etc. as there are so many factors which make up a sound signiature.' so no, in response to your question, I can't quantify the difference between differently priced headphones as a percentage but then I specifically stated I could not. There are, however, differences between headphones and for the most part, I've attempted to pit those differences between the specific headphones requested by describing their individual sound signiatures, strengths and weaknesses compared to each other.
I then went on to explain that reference point, preferences, source, music choice etc. all play a part in what someone might consider 'best' ie. this is subjective.

You can disagree and state that there is no such thing as diminishing returns and of course you're entitled to that opinion but I'd have to respectfully disagree with you as well as it coming down simply to how much money you're willing to spend because at that point I go back to my reference of preference and taste playing a part. If this wasn't the case then all TOTL headphones would sound the same but clearly they do not.
 
Jan 25, 2017 at 6:37 AM Post #37 of 44
I totally understand what you are saying. I am trying to find a place nearby that stocks the Meze so I can at least try them out before I buy. Otherwise the only other alternative will be Amazon and if I don't like them, return them.

Either way this will give me an opportunity to test them alongside the Sony's and I can then report back my findings.
 
Jan 25, 2017 at 6:14 PM Post #38 of 44
I totally understand what you are saying. I am trying to find a place nearby that stocks the Meze so I can at least try them out before I buy. Otherwise the only other alternative will be Amazon and if I don't like them, return them.

Either way this will give me an opportunity to test them alongside the Sony's and I can then report back my findings.


This is the link to the UK distributor for Meze headphones:
http://www.scvdistribution.co.uk/category/meze-headphones/
http://www.scvdistribution.co.uk/contact-details/

SCV supplied most of my Fostex and Questyle gear and they're a good company. Chances are you'll get a reply from Matt Esau who is very helpful. I'd suggest touching down with them to find out whether they distribute the 99s to anyone near the Southampton area.

That would be the easiest option for an audition but your Plan B of Amazon UK is also fine, though you'd need to cover the return fees if it's an opened unwanted product.
 
Jan 25, 2017 at 6:28 PM Post #39 of 44
Thanks.

What about Planet Gizmo in Horsham? They seem to be the cheapest at £251 if you select the debit card option.

That's almost £30 cheaper!

http://www.planetgizmo.co.uk/Meze-99-Headphones.html

They are also regularly doing 5-10% off codes. So might just phone them and ask for that discount upfront. So potentially £225 delivered
 
Jan 25, 2017 at 6:56 PM Post #40 of 44
Thanks.

What about Planet Gizmo in Horsham? They seem to be the cheapest at £251 if you select the debit card option.

That's almost £30 cheaper!

http://www.planetgizmo.co.uk/Meze-99-Headphones.html

They are also regularly doing 5-10% off codes. So might just phone them and ask for that discount upfront. So potentially £225 delivered


Horsham's about as far from Southampton as London is, so you're not talking about an audition.
Hmm... this comes back to 'try before you buy'. I wasn't actually suggesting buying straight off the bat, I was suggesting finding out from SCV whether there was anywhere you could audition the Meze first.

I've dealt with Planet Gizmo and the debit card discount is useful, especially on big orders. That said, their general manager is actually who originally put me in contact with SCV in the first place as SCV are the distributor who supply them.
Under the circumstances, what I'd suggest is contacting SCV (call them on 03301222500, it's easier) to find out whether there's anywhere near to you they supply so you can try them.
While you're on the phone ask if, should you like them, they'll price beat the potential price you can get them from Planet Gizmo for. I can't speak for them but I'd be surprised if they couldn't, given the relationship between the two companies.

SCV represent Meze (along a bunch of other brands) at Canjam UK and The Indulgence Show and usually have a good 5+ pairs available for demo purposes. If you still can't find anywhere to try them it's possible they may be able to send you out a demo pair to try before purchase.
Hope that helps.
 
Feb 5, 2017 at 1:32 PM Post #41 of 44
Not sure what you ended up buying. But, based on the discussion so far, it looks like the sound signature the OP is chasing is very similar to what I am chasing.
I started off with the B&W P7 wireless and the B&O H6, based on the other threads here. I like the sound of the P7, but it feels very forward sounding. The sound stage is not as wide as I want it to be. Also, at times, the sound is "congested", and the instrument separation is not great.
The B&O H6 is awesome, with tighter bass, wide soundstage and great separation. But, it is not as fun as P7. To compensate for the bass signature I like, I tend to bump up the volume. I feel this headphone is causing me a bit of fatigue.
As I was looking for a middle ground, I hit upon the Meze 99 classics. Now, I have all 3, and trying to pick one. So far, the Meze is right where it should be. Loving it.
I also tried the Vmoda m100 and Senn momentum 2.0 in the store. Was not very impressed.
 
Feb 5, 2017 at 4:43 PM Post #42 of 44
Hi, quick update everyone.

I ended up getting a great deal on the Meze 99 Classics for £225 delivered.

I've been using them for a couple of weeks now and couldn't be happier. They are spot on for what I was looking for.

Wide soundstage. Very good instrument separation. Plenty of detail without being too ringing. The mids and vocals are spot on, the warm side of neutral and not recessed but perfectly placed. The bass is well presented than the others mentioned here but I want it to show its presence, which I believe will happen once I get a couple of hundred hours on them.

I also noted that they were less fatiguing than the Sony 100aap's, which I returned. And those are pretty non fatiguing headphones.

I also had a chance to buy a Geek Out 100 for £40 brand new and thought it's a no brainier and would go well with the Meze. Luckily for me the GO worked straight off my Motorola X, and after downloading the Michael Jackson Thriller album in DSD, through the GO, the Meze went to the next level. I was hearing stuff I've never heard before and actual instruments were very cleanly separated and positioned well. I could not fault it. It was an awesome experience.

With standard 24/192 flacs, it was very nice too. Compared them to my friends £200 run of the mill closed ear headphones he got from Curry's. Sorry can't remember the name; it was like night and day. Like they had a few layers of veil over the sound.

All in all, from personal experience, with the Geek Out DAC, I don't think I'll need anything better. And am pretty sure I'd have to spend near enough £500-700 to get anything significantly better or fun.

Which is a Testament to these gem of a headphone set.

Rating (/10)
-------------

Sound - 9 (Bass is excellent, but better sub bass extension would have made them perfect)
Build - 10 (Lovely materials used)
Comfort - 8.5 (Light but some might need the bigger ear pads that are available)
Price - 9 (Nothing better at the price I got them at. But for some £200+ is a lot for headphones)
Noise Isolation - 7 (At low to mid level, very good, however at high volume levels can be clearly heard outside)
Scalability - 9 (Geek Out matched extremely well with these and took them to the next level £500-700)
Portability - 8 (Although portable with nice carrying case, not foldable)
Accessories - 9 (Everything you need)
Looks - 10 (One word - Gorgeous)
-----------------
Overall - 8.8/10
 

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