Newb question regarding replacing capacitors
Dec 11, 2009 at 11:18 PM Thread Starter Post #1 of 24

DirtyLaundry

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Hey,

I gave my brother a Creek amp a while ago and recently it has started acting up. It works for about a minute and then the power seems to cut out and the sound becomes very muffled and muted.

Anyway, I opened the power supply (obh-2) thinking that it's the culprit and noticed one of the capacitors (the biggest one) is bulging at the top, so I'm wondering if it's past due.

The capacitor is rated at 2200uf and 35V. My question is... can I replace it with something like 3300uf and equal voltage, or is that not recommended? I can't find any 2200uf capacitors, and I'm just asking before I go ahead and order them online.

Anyway, sorry in advance for not knowing something this simple. Help would be appreciated, thanks
 
Dec 12, 2009 at 4:25 PM Post #3 of 24
Yep...I would suggest some Panasonic or Nichicon caps. Just make sure you orient them in the proper direction (negative vs positive). The capacitor should have a series of dashes running lengthwise. This indicates the negative. If there are no dashes, then the shortest lead will be the negative. Of course, this only applies to polarized electrolytic capacitors.
 
Dec 12, 2009 at 6:28 PM Post #4 of 24
In a power supply the purpose of a capacitor is to hold a charge so that if there is suddenly a large load (say, a big hit of bass) it can provide more current than the supply could without any caps. It also helps filter and smooth the power. As such, it's fine to go with higher values here. You're just increasing the reservoir. It might be more than the amp needs but it certainly won't hurt as long as you use good quality caps like those ecclesand mentioned.

I would recommend going with a higher voltage rating - say 50V - since one of the 35V capacitors bit the dust. It could just be a bad capacitor but it never hurts to use a slightly higher voltage rating.

Of course, this only applies to power supplies. Don't change capacitor values in the amplification circuit unless you know what it'll do.
 
Dec 12, 2009 at 8:17 PM Post #5 of 24
Thanks guys. By the way, does a bulging cap always mean that's it has gone bad? I noticed the LED of the power supply in question also doesn't light up anymore. Are the symptoms I described typical if something like this happens? Just curious, because it might also be the amp (although I opened it and don't see anything suspicious). What are the chances that the transformer went bad?
 
Dec 12, 2009 at 8:33 PM Post #6 of 24
Quote:

Originally Posted by DirtyLaundry /img/forum/go_quote.gif
Thanks guys. By the way, does a bulging cap always mean that's it has gone bad? I noticed the LED of the power supply in question also doesn't light up anymore. Are the symptoms I described typical if something like this happens? Just curious, because it might also be the amp (although I opened it and don't see anything suspicious). What are the chances that the transformer went bad?


I can't speak for the rest of the stuff you mentioned, but like canned foods - if you see the lid bulging, don't eat it.
wink.gif
I'd be surprised if some soup didn't leak out onto your PCB, too.
 
Dec 12, 2009 at 9:19 PM Post #7 of 24
A bulging cap indicates damage - it's "blown". This usually happens when too high a voltage is applied, but it could just be a bad cap too. I don't know much about chemistry but I believe what is happening is that the electrolytic inside is boiling and the gas creates pressure. The top of capacitors is scored so that if this happens, the gas vents at a relatively low pressure, rather than building to a very high level and exploding like a frag grenade. Someone please correct me if I'm wrong here.

It could be that there is a problem in the rest of the amp (you mentioned something about a tranformer?) or it could just be a bad cap. You might want to test things before installing the new one, and when you do make sure you're wearing eye protection of some sort before powering on, just to be extra paranoid. One of my lab professors blew a small (~100uF) cap on purpose in class to demonstrate the dangers involved, and there's still a small fragment of it in the wall.
 
Dec 14, 2009 at 2:24 AM Post #8 of 24
Hmm, so I changed the cap today to a 3300uf / 50V one. Same problem though
frown.gif


The amp plays for about 2 minutes and then becomes distorted. The LED dims.

Anyone have any suggestions? Maybe it's just time to let it go
 
Dec 14, 2009 at 6:39 AM Post #10 of 24
And more surgery. =o
 
Dec 15, 2009 at 7:51 AM Post #11 of 24
It's unlikely that only one capacitor went bad. I have a creek amp, and it has a large bank of capacitors, so I'm guessing yours does, too. It's also possible for one bad capacitor to cause other things to go bad. Or for other things to cause one or more capacitors to go bad, and maybe start a chain effect.

I'd pull all of the capacitors and test them, or even do the drastic step of replacing them all. I'm not so sure I'd want one 3300 in a bank of 2200s. I'd also check the rest of the supply for problems. Other capacitors, resistors, and the diodes.

The symptoms you speak of--working for a minute then getting muffled--are consistent with the time-constant characteristics of (bad) capacitors, so it makes sense to stick to examining the power supply for now. (But see the afterthought at the end of this post.)

It's extremely unlikely that you damaged the transformer. Those things are usually self-limiting, and very sturdy. It does happen, though. They're straightforward to test. I'll give you the basic idea of a more thorough test, but it's more of a thought experiment than a procedure you want to follow. In practice, I think you're more likely to test it by just hooking up the heaviest load (lowest resistance) and doing an initial check for voltage, then checking the voltages over time while monitoring temperatures. They take a while to heat up to maximum, and the output voltage will change with temperature. The standard is for temperature to not increase more than 20C for small transformers and 30C for large transformers, and doing the test for at least two hours. Choose a load resistance calculated from the secondary output voltage and maximum current draw expected out of that secondary. It's not safe to use the speaker load and amplifier power rating because those numbers are made up more for marketing reasons than technical specs.

Obviously, test it disconnected from the power supply and hooked up to a dummy load. First, check that the output voltages are correct at very light load--they should be at least the rated voltage for the transformer, probably higher, and any pair of outputs meant for a stereo pair should track closely. Then you examine the output current as you slowly increase the current (lower the load resistance) to the maximum it can handle. The voltages on matched pairs of outputs should track or be the same across the load. Voltage output should increase steadily while (roughly) following ohm's law, and only begin to drop off as you reach the current limit. At that point, the ability to handle a magnetic field is saturated, and it can't handle any more, so you won't see much increase in voltage as you lower the load resistance. Stop there or you could damage the thing, and don't keep it there for too long. In fact, you want to do this part fairly quickly to prevent it from overheating.

The point of saturation is one of the things that can go bad in a transformer, so it's an important part of the test. You can actually change the ability of the core to handle a magnetic field. The other thing that can go bad is a short, which can be on one channel or on the input.

If there's more than two outputs (they could have from one to many), the same principle applies--stereo pairs should be the same across the load, and all of the current outputs should increase linearly, (roughly) obeying ohm's law as you lower the load resistance, until the point of saturation where they decrease. The voltages should also be what you expect from the specifications. Of course, you'll need a suitable load that can handle all that current. The (roughly) part is that the voltage output is actually dependent on load, so you get higher voltage at light loads, and less at heavier loads. A graph of current vs. load should look roughly like a straight line, but not quite the straight line Ohm's law suggests. In other words, don't look for perfection--most materials don't work that way. 10-15% variation is the norm for the vintage equipment I'm used to, and while I'd hope things were more straightforward today, there's no good technical reason they need to be better than that for a transformer.

...

Speaking of temperatures...

You might want to post a picture of the supply or a schematic if you have one. It might be that some other component is going bad when heated. A thermometer (which could be as simple as your finger) and a can of cold spray would help you track it down. For starters, touch the capacitors. They should never get hot, just a wee bit warm. I don't know the temperature numbers, but I'd guess they're not even as sturdy as transformers, so anything more than 20C over room temperature would be suspicious to me. The caps in my Creek amp do run hotter than any other amp I've touched. I'm thinking heat is a more likely suspect than time constants. It's close, though--the time constant for those large caps might be on the order of a minute, so anywhere from a few seconds to 10 minutes is suspect.
 
Dec 15, 2009 at 9:03 AM Post #12 of 24
Quote:

Originally Posted by Juaquin /img/forum/go_quote.gif
One of my lab professors blew a small (~100uF) cap on purpose in class to demonstrate the dangers involved, and there's still a small fragment of it in the wall.


Confetti
regular_smile .gif
 
Dec 15, 2009 at 1:34 PM Post #13 of 24
yep, higher capacitance and voltage rating in power supply reservoir caps is more than ok, in most cases its actually preferred and often somewhere to start if you were going to upgrade a power supply. but as was mentioned above, dont just replace one or you might put undue strain on the remaining caps. I cant really add much more to the excellent post above. often caps will go bad from one of several things; overvoltage, too high heat so the electrolyte dries up and cannot cope any longer and age, for the same reason.

whatever you do though; dont just 'upscale' the caps in the amp/filter circuit and definitely dont follow this in anything but the power supply in a digital circuit.

common where are the pics
wink.gif
 
Dec 15, 2009 at 3:54 PM Post #14 of 24
Wow, so much info here. Thanks for the very informative post Siburning. I will go over a few times to try and make sense of it since I'm mostly ignorant about electronics

I uploaded a few pictures:

Creek amp:
http://img26.imageshack.us/img26/6775/img5027c.jpg

Underside of amp:
http://img190.imageshack.us/img190/2715/img5028r.jpg

Power supply innards:
http://img26.imageshack.us/img26/7402/powersupply.jpg

Not really sure what one can get out of those, but it can't hurt to post them. The black capacitor in the power supply is the one I substituted. Again, the LED doesn't work, which I guess is a sign

In the meantime, I found another 24V power supply that I want to test with the amp. Unfortunately, it's not terminated properly so I will have to do that
 
Dec 15, 2009 at 5:40 PM Post #15 of 24
It might just be the light, but it looks like the little blue capacitor might have leaked a bit. The one further from the large black capacitor.

Hate to say this but the simplest thing to do is replace all the parts on the board since they'll cost less than $2us. AT least replace all the caps. A bunch of years ago there were bad capacitors going around for years. They could all just be from that bad electrolyte factory.
 

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