[WayTooCrazy]

I love my WM-Z, my Clip Zip and iPod 5.5G get pretty much 'No Head Time'.  Amazing what an Awesomely Flat Frequency Chart sounds like... pppfffftttt.... keep your charts... I'll keep my "Z".

 

[Jeremypsp]

Quote:

 
you are here to bash the WM-Z because otherwise I'd think that you were trying your hand at a little dose of irony... so bearing that in mind I'll be a tad ironic back, you have never actually had decent time with the WM-Z and I'll take that as you can't afford one but hey please don't take that minor little slur to heart as you still have you charts to compare the WM-Z, DX100, Cowon & iPlod, that should save you plenty of face... feel free to enjoy your charts while we enjoy our music from our DAP's of choice.

Yeah, apparently the Walkman is the worst DAP to date, according to the charts... I don't know, maybe my ears have problems with hearing. 

 

[hyogen]

man.. coloured gets used like a racial slur around here -_- 

Originally Posted by OK-Guy

It is how people choose to react to and accept words which would otherwise contain no other intended meaning. A colored sound is basically something that does not have a linear FR. It is a descriptive statement based on the measurement data, not a personal opinion nor belief.

I'm well aware what coloured sound means as most people on this board probably are.. Is this you trying to educate me or be highly defensive.. Because the rest of my post should tell you I understand that ibasso dx100 and ipod5th gens have very flat, uncoloured sound. Just wondering because I'm not in here to bash the overpriced z. It is what it is, and people will hopefully not regret paying a big premium for something that produces colored sound.

You're so quick to defend the Z that you can't understand that I, too, love coloured sound. Which is why I love cowons with their equalizer and BBE.

Like I've said before, I'm not here to bash the z. I can afford a few Z's right now actually just with my audio budget which I've profited a net of about $2500 now just buying and selling on the side starting with $200 about 8 weeks ago.. I also work and attend school full time.. Link to how I started growing my headphone budget here. http://www.head-fi.org/t/599650/crazy-but-true-story-of-how-this-pauper-got-the-girl-and-hifi-equipment-where-theres-a-will-there-is-a-way-even-for-the-poor-hifiman-d Seriously, I'd love to try the Z out and will when the price drops..chances are that I'll like it since I like the coloured sound of Cowon! I'm a big fan of Sony..have always liked my ps3, psp, and recently purchased a ps vita for $150 like new including about $100 worth of games and accessories. I pity the fools who imported a vita from Japan for $600 before it was released here. Hopefully a rich fool the only difference with the overpriced z1070 is that it is even more dumb for not having even a proprietary memory expansion slot like Sony has done for pretty much all of their devices to date. Sony is driving vita sales to the ground and scaring off developers, and also missing out on high priced proprietary memory cards for the Walkman Z, for which I'm sure Sony fanboys everywhere would gladly pay.

There is a fine line between stupidity and fanboiism. Then there is elitism.. =P My reaction to the coloured word was merely an observation of how people perceive it as being bad. Or they'll think it's bad, but will use coloured headphones. Look at my headphones in my sig....I like to listen to the real colours of my dap, so that's why I use flat headphones...

Theres no need to save face on my part nor yours... Just be proud you paid what you did with your z. Sorry if it sounded like I was ridiculing you for it. You obviously felt the need to try to insult me in more ways than one!

I forget its useless having arguments with people online.. I'm sure our age/maturity range is pretty scattered as well.

 

[WayTooCrazy]

I guess the whole point of this thread... is, why come into it to bash on people who like their WM-Z?  I understand if you do or do not like the WM-Z.  Ok, I get it.  No need to go into basically a "Fan" page to complain about it.  I don't go to the iPod forum and say that I have a dozen of them... and think they stink, or that I have an iPhone 4s and I think that it has poor audio.  None of that matters to me.  This thread, and all the others that are dedicated to the owners of those devices were intended for Fans, or users of those devices to offer up advice or suggestions on how to get better sound.  If you do anything other than that... you're merely trolling for responses.  I have other ways of getting my kicks.  I've not heard the Cowon, DX100, HiFiMan, Colorfly and others.  If I get a chance, I'd love to.  Would I like them better? Possibly.  I think I'm at a point though, that I'm satisfied.  I don't need to amp my headphones as they're all IEMS.  I enjoy my TF10 (though I do EQ it a little to give it some mids).  I love my CIEMS.  I even like my stock earbuds and Klipsch S4.  They all sound different and all do better with certain genres over others.  It's all a matter of personal taste. Graphs be damned... I don't listen to a graph, I listen to the music.... and no one can tell me how I should listen to my music, as no one else has my ears or my personal taste.  All of this is subjective anyway.  So, since the last few pages were wasted on needless bickering... can we move forward?
 
Hyogen, congrats on your marriage and schooling... your wife is beautiful! You don't have to spend a lot of money to enjoy your music, a simple set of decent earphones... and those can be had cheap enough (I actually still really enjoy my Sennheiser PX200-II) and a DAP that you like (be it a Sansa or DX100) and enjoy.  Going up the audio ladder isn't always productive as I've spent a lot of money buying and selling audio gear... and I guess that's part of the fun... but it is a hobby and should be regarded as such.  I used to enjoy racing Radio Control Cars... till the cost got out of hand (spent over $7000 one year racing and buying/selling cars and gear).  So yea, a Hobby is a Hobby... there are other more important things out there... like your wife and your education.  That being said... 
 
I love my WM-Z!   

 

[OK-Guy]

Quote:

I never thought the "Z" had a flat, boring sound.  I very much like the sound that it produces.  It's "Tube Like" to my ears.  ...and THAT, I enjoy.  I tried a few Home speakers recently... and I found a pair that I like.  They're the Quad 11L2.  Guess what, they have a slightly rolled off top end, thick middle, great detail... and nice detailed bass (Tube like to me).  I could probably use a sub... but not high on my list with how it sounds with all my Jazz music.  I like them, and the finish on them is fantastic... so, I guess I'm a Tube sound head or something.... lol.

 
Quad  has a solid reputation in England (& UK), they've been the valve champs for many years and do a mean speaker range... my mate being a vinyl junkie has the full monty of a Quad system (ll-Classic (made in 60's), ESL's & 11-lites & a Linn Sondeck), he only uses two speakers at a time often switching them for different genres... but when he has the ESL's hooked-up they sound absolutely divine.
 
I'm more of a mosfet type of guy which suits my needs... the only reason I've just sold my wonderful Arcam bi-amped system was that after 12 years I actually got a bit 'used' to the sound and wanted something similar but different... yes it's an expensive hobby home hi-fi but if you can come close to what sound you desire then stick with what you got... enjoy your 11L2's if they're like the Lites they'll be great fun and real musical... some even say they're on par with the legendary Rogers LS3/5A BBC monitors, now that is high praise indeedy.

 

[Jeremypsp]

Quote:

Wow now we're resorting to insulting somebody because they can't afford something... Haha. You're so quick to defend the Z that you can't understand that I, too, love coloured sound. Which is why I love cowons with their equalizer and BBE.
Like I've said before, I'm not here to bash the z. I can afford a few Z's right now actually just with my audio budget which I've profited a net of about $2500 now just buying and selling on the side starting with $200 about 8 weeks ago.. I also work and attend school full time.. Link to how I started growing my headphone budget here. http://www.head-fi.org/t/599650/crazy-but-true-story-of-how-this-pauper-got-the-girl-and-hifi-equipment-where-theres-a-will-there-is-a-way-even-for-the-poor-hifiman-d Seriously, I'd love to try the Z out and will when the price drops..chances are that I'll like it since I like the coloured sound of Cowon! I'm a big fan of Sony..have always liked my ps3, psp, and recently purchased a ps vita for $150 like new including about $100 worth of games and accessories. I pity the fools who imported a vita from Japan for $600 before it was released here. Hopefully a rich fool

the only difference with the overpriced z1070 is that it is even more dumb for not having even a proprietary memory expansion slot like Sony has done for pretty much all of their devices to date. Sony is driving vita sales to the ground and scaring off developers, and also missing out on high priced proprietary memory cards for the Walkman Z, for which I'm sure Sony fanboys everywhere would gladly pay.
There is a fine line between stupidity and fanboiism. Then there is elitism.. =P My reaction to the coloured word was merely an observation of how people perceive it as being bad. Or they'll think it's bad, but will use coloured headphones. Look at my headphones in my sig....I like to listen to the real colours of my dap, so that's why I use flat headphones...
Theres no need to save face on my part nor yours... Just be proud you paid what you did with your z. Sorry if it sounded like I was ridiculing you for it. You obviously felt the need to try to insult me in more ways than one!
I forget its useless having arguments with people online.. I'm sure our age/maturity range is pretty scattered as well.

Seriously, what you're saying is doing nothing to help the conversation at all. Firstly, you have not tried the Z. Secondly, you keep whining about things nobody cares about. Like how there's no memory expansion etc. seriously? It's like saying that just because something doesn't have memory expansion, it outright sucks. Okay, so some people can afford $600 and think it's worth it, that doesn't mean you have the right to bash them. And wait. How is the TF10 flat? Seriously, your arguments are really nothing but how the Z is overpriced and doesn't have a memory expansion and how the Galaxy S is more worth it when you haven't even compared the two. 

Not that I'm protecting the Z in any way, I do find a few faults with them, but what I find not right is people posting bunch of comments to discredit how it's not worth it and there are many better devices out there at a cheaper price. And then they start posting frequency charts in an attempt to save themselves from getting bashed for not listening to something and commenting. 

Okay, the Z is overpriced, so what? We found it worth it, and then you're trying to emphasize the fact when we already confirmed it, so he don't really have much of a say here anymore. Okay... I admit that I bought the Z because of the advertisement(I already have many other Walkmans which this would actually be useless)... But I had nothing to better to buy, so why not? 

 

[Achmedisdead]

Isn't this sound signature in the graphs with the rolled off highs the same type as the mythical overhyped Wolfson DAC chips that so many people seem to think are the cat's arse? lol
 
I dunno, I enjoy my Clip Zip, my 4th-gen Touch, my Galaxy Player 5.0, and now my new A867.....do they all sound the same? No....but I have different headphones, and there's always EQ's/enhancements available, if a certain headphone doesn't match up well with a player's flat setting.

 

[OK-Guy]

Quote:

what I find not right is people posting bunch of comments to discredit how it's not worth it and there are many better devices out there at a cheaper price.  

Okay, the Z is overpriced, so what? We found it worth it. 

 
yanno the money question never enters my head when I'm out to buy something.... value is only a cost that is perceived by others... the actual cost to you 'is the enjoyment' of your purchase.
 
off topic regarding speakers.... there's a pair of mint-condition Rogers LS3/5A's made in the 70's for sale on ebay... cost really won't matter to the winning bidder as it's the product that they are after... these babies were about £350/450 back in the day but I reckon this pair will fetch £2k+
 
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/PAIR-VINTAGE-ROGERS-LS3-5A-MONITOR-LOUDSPEAKERS-ORIGINAL-PACKING-/270985538873?pt=UK_Sound_Vision_Vintage_Separates&hash=item3f17ff2d39
 
sometimes I rue the day I sold mine in the 80's for £150.... but I bought the LS7's they were a mean speaker and very underated imo.

 

[Jeremypsp]

Quote:

 
yanno the money question never enters my head when I'm out to buy something.... value is only a cost that is perceived by others... the actual cost to you 'is the enjoyment' of your purchase.
 
off topic regarding speakers.... there's a pair of mint-condition Rogers LS3/5A's made in the 70's for sale on ebay... cost really won't matter to the winning bidder as it's the product that they are after... these babies were about £350/450 back in the day but I reckon this pair will fetch £2k+
 
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/PAIR-VINTAGE-ROGERS-LS3-5A-MONITOR-LOUDSPEAKERS-ORIGINAL-PACKING-/270985538873?pt=UK_Sound_Vision_Vintage_Separates&hash=item3f17ff2d39
 
sometimes I rue the day I sold mine in the 80's for £150.... but I bought the LS7's they were a mean speaker and very underated imo.

Got to agree, if you really love a product and would want it no matter whar, paying 10k for it won't be a problem right? 

 

[elfary]

Quote:

You can't compare Sonove's data to Markus' they use different types of loads. Markus' load is more prone to dips and humps.  Thus the Ipods mentioned won't graph as flat, this is how the Ipod Classic 7G graphs, which will be very similar to those models mentioned. 
 
Here is the Cowon J3, which is average, not poor by any means and better than the Sony X. 
 
We already get plenty coloration with the IEMs/Headphones, a slurred response from the source is degrading.  

Just for the record. The iPod Classic measured by Kraus is the fat 160Gb (As he told me via twitter when i asked).It's not the 7G.
 
The great thing about Kraus measurements is that he uses a balanced armature iem with wild impedance distribution across the frequency range.So it demands a low output impedance source.Thus you get a great idea of the output impedance of the player measured. An RMAA of a dynamic headphone won't tell much about that critical parameter. That's why he uses the TF10 for RMAA's (It does not have to do with electrical damping since armatures by their nature do not need much damping)
 
And there are other key areas to sound quality as distortion, noise floor and crosstalk. In these areas synergies are worth nothing. Nor any amount of equalizing.
 
This is a science. Uneducated approaches work worse (and are more expensive) than educated ones.
 
Just get the best measured device you can buy and then a headphone whose tonal balance you like. It's not complicated nor esoteric.
 
Unfortunately Sony caps the volume of European units by raising the output impedance (instead of going the firmware route). That's why Markus Kraus Z measurement looks terrible. And that's why it can not sound any good. And purcharsing an european unit of this thing is an utter waste of money. Plus a disrespect on the Sony end regarding Europen customers. No wonder why they get the financial results they get these days.
 
Could a car with 3 flat tires beat a working Ferrari? In Europe the Sony Z is the one with flat tires. And i don't need to hear the absence of highs in the signal to attest that this device is not worth it.

 

[WayTooCrazy]

Those speakers you mentioned are going for almost $1000 US... ouch!
 
I have these...

Sorry if off topic.... but these sound so Awesome to my ears... I used a Canare 4S11 speaker cable... tried BiAmping... and yea, gotta read up on it more... but like them as they are... I don't even really desire a sub for them.

 

[OK-Guy]

Quote:

Got to agree, if you really love a product and would want it no matter whar, paying 10k for it won't be a problem right? 

 
deffo.... and not just hi-fi products & the like... you pay the price for the things you enjoy the most... you've only got one go at life so no point dithering over things.

 

[OK-Guy]

Quote:

Just get the best measured device you can buy and then a headphone whose tonal balance you like. It's not complicated nor esoteric.
 
And i don't need to hear the absence of highs in the signal to attest that this device is not worth it.

 
*** don't ever think of buying a hi-fi if you seriously believe that graphs are the way to make your purchase... you will be severely disappointed.
 
I was almost taking your detailed comments seriously until I read the last part... you ain't even heard one but you make what appears to be a definitive statement, has no-one ever told you not to judge a book by its cover as front covers are easily found?... don't ever pick-up a copy of Playboy, the contents may just shock you... and so ironically that is the case with my WM-Z, crap packaging but the contents really impress... Playboy anyone?

 

[JCJiffy]

Quote:

 
Unfortunately Sony caps the volume of European units by raising the output impedance (instead of going the firmware route). That's why Markus Kraus Z measurement looks terrible. And that's why it can not sound any good. And purcharsing an european unit of this thing is an utter waste of money. Plus a disrespect on the Sony end regarding Europen customers. No wonder why they get the financial results they get these days.

 
So do you suggest that a non-European unit may measure with very different results then?

 

[OK-Guy]

Quote:

Those speakers you mentioned are going for almost $1000 US... ouch!
 
I have these...

Sorry if off topic.... but these sound so Awesome to my ears... I used a Canare 4S11 speaker cable... tried BiAmping... and yea, gotta read up on it more... but like them as they are... I don't even really desire a sub for them.

 
those Quads have a beautiful finish and that birds-eye maple really sets them apart, never listened to the 112L but I know from respected reviews that they are an improved version of the Lites which I have enjoyed listening to many times.... they are very similar in sound to the Rogers up on ebay believe me, if anything they're better.
 
If you bi-amp you must bi-wire the speakers... your reward will be a better defined bass and improvements in the mids & highs.... basically the bottom power-amp drives the bass & the control amp takes care of the rest... when I got my first Arcam amp I was real happy with the sound but when I upgraded my CD-Player the dealer was demo'ing an Arcam bi-amped system, after I few months I decided the extra investment was worth it for the extra bit of clarity, definition and added bass depth... mind I then went on to change the speakers as I now had a bigger soundstage to play with and there was the additional cost of an extra pair of speaker cables... so bear in mind that by bi-amping can change you system in more ways than one... was it worth it... yes !!!
 
I'd hate to get some of those speakers that have 'three x 2' binding-post... triple amping.... hmmmm there's an idea