[visualguy]

 
Quote:

 
As for not hearing a difference, that may be the case with you but most of us can clearly hear the difference better amps bring to the table.  I'm a little biased here (since I built it) but look at the impressions n3rdling's Blue Hawaii gets at every meet he brings it to, 
 

The question is whether he would get the same impressions from people if he stuffed that BH case with a KGSS cirtcuit, or a 007ta circuit, etc.
 
I communicated with a number of people on these forums who repeated the conventional wisdom about the big difference amps make, and it turned out that none of them had much experience listening to the amps that they were talking about. There are very few folks here who actually own these amps at the same time and can do a real comparison.
 
I can only relay my personal experience which is that the differences in sound between the amps that I own (KGSS, 727a, 007ta, 323S) are minute, and absolutely insignificant when compared to the differences between headphones. Actually, it's not just my personal experience - I have had a couple of audiophile visitors over the last couple of months, and they didn't hear a significant difference in the sound of my SR-009 between the KGSS and the 007ta.
 

 

[spritzer]

Quote:

The question is whether he would get the same impressions from people if he stuffed that BH case with a KGSS cirtcuit, or a 007ta circuit, etc.
 

Sure, it is a large and rather imposing amp but this argument holds little water.  I've let a lot of people listen to my ESX (which is very, very big and impressive looking) but more often than not people have preferred something else, something more modern (KGSS etc,).  You are simply assuming that we buy with our wallets and not our ears which is clearly not true.  I was one of the first to step out and openly state that the Orpheus was very flawed and being seriously inferior to my SR-007.  At the time it was four times as expensive so money clearly isn't a factor. 

 

[visualguy]

Quote:

You are simply assuming that we buy with our wallets and not our ears which is clearly not true.

No, I'm not saying that - I didn't say anything about cost. Like I said before, my impression is that people assume that a superior headphones amp circuit will make more of a difference in sound than it actually does in reality.
 

 

[Amarphael]

For what it's worth, I too can attest that the KGSS is sinificantly better than the SRM-717, I've compared them side by side when i had both. The KGSS is like spritzer said, More linear. It makes the O2 sound quite neutral to my ears wheras the through the 717 they were warmer and 'fuzzier' with a more mid-bass and less treble extention. The are also more spacious sounding thru the KGSS, Realy awesome out-of-the-head kind of way that falls in line with the Earspeakers title than they had with the 717.
 
All this was clearly evident right at the first minuts and not some minute diffrences that i had to strain to hear.

 

[pabbi1]

Silly me - thought I could come here to read about STAX SR009.
 
But, since everyone only wants to talk about amps, I've heard a few, and, they DO make a significant difference - sometimes. IFF you have the proper (read: really good) source, you can tell when an electrostatic amp is not up to the task. I have heard BH, KGSS and Woo GES head to head (see pic below), HEV90/HE90, McAlister (don't ask), Singlepower ES-1 (with GREAT tubes), the KG T2, BHSE, Stax SRM/T1 / 727 / 006a / 007, as well as all flavors of eXStata (which I still use now).
 
If you have the right source, only the KG designs (SS, BH, T2), Singlepower ES-1 (if built correctly) and eXStata (Birgir's bias aside) can deliver the goods. I am not a fan of the KGSS, though I can see why others might think so.
 
Here was one such session:
 

 

[catscratch]

Quote:

Originally Posted by visualguy /img/forum/go_quote.gif
 
I communicated with a number of people on these forums who repeated the conventional wisdom about the big difference amps make, and it turned out that none of them had much experience listening to the amps that they were talking about. There are very few folks here who actually own these amps at the same time and can do a real comparison.

 
I own a 717 and a Blue Hawaii, as well as a 313 and a transformer box with a few speaker amps. I compare them side by side all the time. Yes, there are differences, even between the 717 and BH, both of which are made to be as transparent as possible. I do agree that people blow the differences between amps out of proportion, but you're trying to prove the idea that people don't really hear the differences that they think they hear by using what you hear as an example. That's just trying to prove the fallibility of a system by using the same fallible system as evidence. If you assume other people don't hear properly then you have to at least entertain the idea that your own ears don't work properly as well, otherwise all you're really saying is "me > you."
 
I think design-based criticism is one hell of a lot more valid than random listening impressions, because at least here there is a measurable right or wrong.  Now, whether or not you like the sound of certain designs is another matter; I know there are some types of colorations that I prefer over a totally transparent amp. It's the same story with whether or not you think the differences are worth the money; it's purely subjective. But trying to dispute the effects of design differences with your own hearing is every bit as subjective as claiming massive differences from the furthest reaches of snake oil. Besides, placebo swings both ways; if you don't think you're likely to hear the difference you're less likely to really hear it as well.

 

[visualguy]

Quote:

Besides, placebo swings both ways; if you don't think you're likely to hear the difference you're less likely to really hear it as well.

 
True, but there are differences that easily transcend placebo or bias, and there are those that don't. For example, the sound differences between the SR-007 and the SR-009 are clear and noticeable regardless of whether you expect to hear a difference or not. The differences between the electrostatic amps that I own don't come anywhere close to falling into that category. They are firmly in the minor category. If anything, I was actually biased toward hearing a big difference after reading these forums...
 
For example, I get slightly better soundstaging and imaging with the SR-009 on the KGSS than I do on the 007ta. Other than that, I can't really point to a difference in sound. Is the minor difference that I detect significant? Not to me since I don't notice the slight deficiency of the 007ta other than in careful side-by-side listening to certain types of content.
 
My point is that some minor differences exist, but they are amplified (pun intended...) way too much on these forums.
 

 

[googleli]

Great amp discussions. But is there a way the BHSE company can ramp up its production so that the wait time is comparable to the WES? Or some of you gurus here generous enough to start a company selling DIY T2s? Otherwise we can only envy. I would go for the WES but knowing there is something commercially available out there which is better at the same price just itches me. Now if the wait time is similar, it would be a easy choice...

 

[Deadneddz]

Quote:

My point is that some minor differences exist, but they are amplified (pun intended...) way too much on these forums.
 

 
This is not news to many of us. Differences are relative, but fundamentally you will have greater perceived differences between transducers than between amplifiers. A DIYT2 will not make a Koss ESP10 sound like an SR-007.....we understand this.
 
If you are just finding this out for yourself, this is a great learning experience, but please try to keep this thread on the topic at hand. You read through these forums and created your own quantity of perceived differences between amplifiers, only now finding them not to the same expectation and degree of difference you held in your own mind before experiencing them yourself. Happens to many people. This is why meets are invaluable and reading "reviews" are almost always worthless.

 

[Hammerzeit]

Great amp discussions. But is there a way the BHSE company can ramp up its production so that the wait time is comparable to the WES? Or some of you gurus here generous enough to start a company selling DIY T2s? Otherwise we can only envy. I would go for the WES but knowing there is something commercially available out there which is better at the same price just itches me. Now if the wait time is similar, it would be a easy choice...

If I were you, I'd just order a BHSE now. Apparently the batch of 45 BHSEs will be done faster, though I'm doubtful. Also I'm guessing that no one but Justin knows if there are going to be any more batches of the BHSE being built after these 45 so there's that to consider. For the T2DIY it can't be sold as a commercial product. Your best chance of getting one is to get someone to build one, otherwise the BHSE (according to most) is the best commercial stax amp available.

 

[Double F]

Most of the current Stax produced amps are acceptable but more power takes it to the next level.  This is why  1000 watt mono block speaker amps are built.  Will you ever play speaker using all that power?  Proly not,  but the sound getting up to the volume level desired is that much more effortless.open and smoother because of reserve power.  
My PMC speakers are rated to take a maximum power of 300 watts yet I am use 500 watt mono blocks.  I've tried several amps and these sounded the best.  I will never open them up unless I feel the need to replace expensive speaker drivers.
Because of the voltage demands of electrostatic headphones the power reserve is so much more important than dynamic cans. 

 

[visualguy]

Quote:

 
This is not news to many of us. Differences are relative, but fundamentally you will have greater perceived differences between transducers than between amplifiers. A DIYT2 will not make a Koss ESP10 sound like an SR-007.....we understand this.
 
If you are just finding this out for yourself, this is a great learning experience, but please try to keep this thread on the topic at hand. You read through these forums and created your own quantity of perceived differences between amplifiers, only now finding them not to the same expectation and degree of difference you held in your own mind before experiencing them yourself. Happens to many people. This is why meets are invaluable and reading "reviews" are almost always worthless.

My comparisons were done using the SR-009, so it's on-topic since it pertains to the amp requirements of the SR-009.
 
If the fact that the differences between amps are slight is clear to many people and not news, then that's great, but certainly not the impression that you would get from reading here. I hope I helped at least some people to avoid disappointment.
 
As to the SR-009, they are wonderful, but I find that I reach for my SR-007 mk1 more often. The problem is that even though the SR-009 sound better (increased clarity and soundstage), they are more fatiguing.
 

 

[visualguy]

 
Quote:

Most of the current Stax produced amps are acceptable but more power takes it to the next level. 

I hope to be able to visit "the next level" some day too... I keep hearing that phrase from my high-end audio dealers. When I asked about the differences between the Bel Canto DAC3.5 and DAC2.5, I was told that the DAC2.5 is great, but the DAC3.5 takes it to the next level. I asked in what way, but couldn't get a clear answer. I listened to both, and couldn't hear a difference, so I got the DAC2.5. Similarly, my Marantz dealer told me that the SA-11S2 is great, but the SA-7S1 takes it to the next level. Well, I now own both, and can't hear the slightest difference. In fact, the electronics are almost entirely identical between those players, and the transport is identical, so the next level that I'm missing there must be a result of the slightly larger transformer or the heavier chassis of the 7S1. I can't seem to be able to have a conversation with an audio dealer without hearing about this blissful next level.
 
Seriously, it's good to hear finally from someone else here that current Stax amps are acceptable - thanks for having the courage to say that here.
 

 

[pachku]

From my understanding, there was never a doubt that Stax builds decent amps - even the hardcore Stax mafia members say so. The 323 (never heard it) is said to be pretty good, the 717 is excellent, the 727 can be made so, the 007t isn't bad either - but then, a BHSE will run circles around all of them - more space, more precision, more impact, better control, improvement in every dimension. If it's worth 5k, everybody has to decide for himself, this can't be an absolute statement, so please everybody stop complaining. I can enjoy the music from my Burson / LCD-2 combo as well, but the big rig is just spectacular. Gonna get myself a Aristaeus now so I can try the SR-009 on that, too - just because I'm curious

 

[googleli]

Anyone had chance to listen to the SRM600 Limited edition? How does it compare with the 007t / 727ii?